LIVE | Walz, Ellison testify at Congressional hearing on Minnesota fraud

Full Investigation Transcript

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You ready? Ready. The hearing of the committee on oversight and government reform will come to order. Want to welcome everyone here today. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Good morning. Today’s hearing is about a failure of leadership. Plain and simple. For years, Governor Tim Walt and Attorney General Keith Ellison presided over one of the most extensive breakdowns of oversight this committee has ever examined. Billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from social service programs while warnings piled up, whistleblowers spoke out, and state officials chose delay and denial over action. Federal prosecutors estimate that as much as $9 billion dollar may have been stolen from just 14 Medicaid programs administered by the state of Minnesota. Those programs have cost taxpayers more than $18 billion since 2018. and investigators believe that half or more of that spending may have been lost to fraud. That did not happen overnight. As our investigation has shown, it happened because state leadership failed repeatedly to intervene. Governor Waltz has claimed his administration addressed fraud, and I quote, very early unquote. But that claim does not hold up to the facts. His administration kept payments flowing. In January, the first hearing of this series, we heard from Minnesota state representatives who made clear this fraud was not hidden. It was known, documented, and repeatedly brought to the attention of state leadership. In case after case, state agencies identified red flags and received warnings from auditors and employees, but continued to send money out the door. not because they lacked authority to intervene, but because they feared lawsuits, bad press, and political backlash. While Governor Waltz hesitated, taxpayers lost billions. Attorney General Ellison has likewise claimed his office was aggressively holding fraudsters accountable. But when his statements were tested against the record, they fell apart. In the Feeding Our Future case, Governor Wall and Attorney General Ellison publicly suggested that courts forced the state to continue payments. The judges in that case took the extraordinary step of publicly correcting them. The truth is, the state made a choice once again to keep sending the money out the door. The Feeding Our Future scandal alone involved nearly $300 million stolen from programs meant to feed children during the pandemic. We’re talking about fake invoices, meals that never existed, luxury cars, and overseas investments, all paid by the American taxpayer. Today, dozens have been convicted. The fraud was real. The warning signs were obvious, and state leadership failed to act. The same pattern repeats across Minnesota’s social services system. In the child care assistance program, providers racked up dozens and in some cases more than a hundred violations and still collected millions. Facilities shut down and reopened the same day under new names at the same address. This went on for years. Housing stabilization systems, housing stabilization services, a program expected to cost $2.6 million annually, exploded to over hund00 million a year. Federal prosecutors have described it as, and I quote, “Easy money. Providers build services never delivered while the Walt administration failed to intervene until federal agents showed up.” And when state employees tried to stop this, they were silenced and retaliated against for even daring to notice the fraud. We have spoken with over 30 whistleblowers. many of them current employees and Democrats who say they were ignored, retaliated against, and even surveiled for raising concerns. Instead of protecting the whistleblowers, the Walts administration protected the system that enabled the fraud. We are taking oversight of fraud seriously, and today I hope the Democrats will do the same, but their track record is not promising. We followed up with the whistleblowers when state leaders ignored them. Republican staff spent 36 hours and 46 minutes in nine transcribed interviews with current and former Minnesota state officials. Democrats, however, only asked three hours and 14 minutes worth of questions. That’s inexcusable and frankly embarrassing. Taxpayers deserve better. We are working with the Trump administration, which is taking a whole of government approach to stop fraud before money is stolen. What we’ve uncovered in Minnesota is not a paperwork error or a few bad actors slipping through the cracks. It is sustained failure of leadership. Governor Walt and Attorney General Ellison were warned repeatedly. Auditors raised red flags. Employees sounded alarms. Invoices didn’t make sense. And still the money kept flowing. While state officials hesitated, billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from programs meant to serve children, the disabled, and families in crisis. While whistleblowers were silenced, fraudsters got rich. Accountability shouldn’t begin only after federal prosecutors step in and clean up the damage. A compa accountability should compel leaders to act. And here they did not. Today, this committee expects answers, and we expect an explanation for why it took federal law enforcement, not state leadership, to finally turn off the spot. Before we proceed, I’d like to ask unanimous consent to enter the committee’s interim staff report titled The Cost of Doing Nothing: How Tim Waltz and Keith Ellison Fueled Minnesota’s Fraud Explosion. Into the record, without objection, so ordered. And with that, I now yield to Ranking Member Garcia for his opening statement. » Thank you, Chairman Kilmer. I want to thank of course the governor for being here today uh the attorney general as well and to Reverend Mariah Tolgard. Thank you so much for being here. I especially though want to thank the motans that I know have traveled uh here to be with us today uh to witness this hearing but also uh in solidarity of the horrors and terrors that are happening not just in Minnesota but that have happened across the country. Now, we look forward to hearing directly on what life in Minnesota has been like thanks to the Trump administration’s actions. And the truth is that Donald Trump and Republicans have cut billions of dollars, billions of dollars from health care and food assistance. That is a reality. Instead, with that money, they’ve used it to hire officers who are now terrorizing cities and killing Americans. That’s where our taxpayer dollars have gone. We’ve taken from food assistance. We’ve taken from health care and we’ve superfunded terror on American streets. Now, Donald Trump has unleashed chaos against innocent Americans and across Minnesota. And we’re going to talk about that today. Terror that has actually impacted real families and kids like Liam Ramos who have been used, as we know, as bait. And we all know Liam’s story really well. The reality is American citizens, innocent kids, people have been brutalized and ripped away from their families. They’ve been thrown into detention centers with horrible conditions that people are literally dying in these centers. Peaceful Americans have been killed by federal officers and agents and labeled them as domestic terrorists or assassins by their own government. Where is the hearing and the outrage for those actions? Now, Alex Prey, as we all know, a VA nurse, was peacefully exercising his first and second amendment rights when he was pepper-sprayed, tackled, disarmed, and then shot repeatedly in the back. Renee Good, a mom who told an officer, and I quote, “I’m not mad at you.” End quote, was shot dead just moments after. And this pattern of violence and lawlessness we’ve seen, of course, all over the country. Now, our committee and Democrats have documented over 590 cases of suspected misconduct by President Trump and Christine Gnome’s immigration and enforcement agents across the country, not just in Minnesota. There’s been 240 incidents of violence or concerning use of force and 181 have involved United States citizens. Now, we’ve heard testimony that ISIS training has actually completely changed and now actually teaches our agents to violate the rights of American citizens. That’s what we’re teaching now to federal agents. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. DHS and ICE are out of control and must be held accountable by the Congress. Now, oversight Democrats have been partnering to hold hearings to investigate these abuses, to hold DHS Secretary accountable. Steven Miller, Greg Bavino, and make no mistake, this is Donald Trump’s personal police and military force he’s unleashing on American streets. Now, the hearing that we have today is going to build on those investigations. Operation Metro Surge, which we’re going to hear a lot about today, this is really about not just what’s happening in Minnesota through that operation, but the ways that President Trump has waged his own personal war on Minnesota. Instead of improving systems, of course we’re talking about fraud, according to our Republican colleagues, but instead of improving systems to prevent future fraud, Trump’s also cut off $259 million in Medicaid funding to the state. He’s threatened federal food aid for $600,000 motans, including 200,000 kids. President Trump has tried to use fraud as his excuse for all of this. But what’s really happening is violence, terror, death, destruction, and ripping away services from those that need it. You don’t fight fraud by issuing presidential pardons to fraudsters. You don’t fight fraud from ripping away fruit assistance to kids. Now, since his re-election, Trump has also given out jail free cards to dozens of actual real fraudsters who could get out of repaying their victims more than $1 billion. Where is the fraud hearing on those abuses? And we know that you just don’t fight fraud by singling out states led by Democrats and ignoring states led by Republicans. Every single person here, and I know the governor and the attorney general believe this as well, we all want to fra fight fraud, waste, and abuse in government. Oklahoma, by the way, and Alabama lead the nation in SNAP fraud. In Texas and Florida, a Russian citizen has been arrested for submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent claims and funneling millions overseas. Where are those hearings? Where is the governor of Oklahoma or Alabama or Texas or Florida? I also want to note this. Because of the Trump administration’s illegal and unconstitutional actions, we know there is now 31 of 64 31 of 64 lawyers at the Minnesota US Attorney’s Office that have left. That is stunning. The lead attorney responsible for pursuing these fraud cases has left because the Trump administration ordered them, of we know to investigate Renee Good’s widow, not her killer. They were ordered to investigate Renee Good’s widow, not her killer. If the president cared at all about fraud, we would not have all of these officers with all this illegal behavior on Minnesota streets. And we should remember that the Trump administration tried to use Operation Metro Surge as leverage to seize Minnesota’s voter roles. The Trump administration was never serious about addressing fraud in Minnesota. Instead, they’ve been interested in election conspiracy theories, in terrorizing kids, and they’ve accuse the governor and attorney general of covering up fraud only to investigate them and turn up actually no evidence. What they’re trying to do is convince Americans that there’s a good reason for violence, for killings, and for violations of the law. That’s not acceptable, and we’re not going to take that here today. I want to thank our witnesses again for being here and I yield back. » Ranking member yields back. I’d like to welcome our witnesses. Uh first we have Tim Waltz, governor of the state of Minnesota. Governor Waltz first took office in January 2019. Next we have Keith Ellison, Attorney General of the state of Minnesota. Attorney General Ellison also first took office in January 2019. And finally, we have Reverend Mariah Furnus Tolgard, senior pastor, Hamlin Church United Methodist. Thank you all so much for joining us today, and we look forward to your testimony. Pursuant to Committee Rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand and raise the right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you’re about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. Let the record show that the witnesses answered the affirmative and please take a seat. We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statement. They will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it’s on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your five minutes have expired and we would ask that you please wrap up. I now recognize Governor Waltz for his opening statement. Governor, » thank you, Chairman Comr, Ranking Member Garcia, members of the committee. I’m proud to be here today as the governor of the great state of Minnesota. Under my leadership, Minnesota has dedicated its resources to ensuring that all motans can live dignified and full lives with access to top-notch public schools, quality healthcare, good jobs. Thanks to these initiatives, Minnesota’s been ranked as one of the best states to raise a family in, one of the best states to find a job in, and one of the best states to live in. Although Minnesota’s programs have overwhelmingly achieved their intended purposes, they’re not immune from fraud. I’ll be the first to acknowledge that. But let me be clear. In Minnesota, if you defraud public programs, if you steal taxpayer money, we’ll find you. We’ll prosecute you. We’ll convict you, and we’ll throw you in jail. In this anti-fraud mission, we keep good company. Across the country, our nation’s governors work hard every single day to combat fraud in their programs. But even as we confront issues similar to our sister states, the people of Minnesota have been singled out and targeted for political retribution at an unparalleled scale, including blocking Medicaid reimbursements to our spa state. Just last week, under the guise of combating fraud, the federal government has flooded Minnesota with masked, untrained, and unaccountable agents who are wreaking havoc in our communities. On the streets of Minnesota, federal agents have entered US citizens homes who have committed no crimes. They have violated the constitutional rights of our citizens. They have ignored court orders. They have shot first and ask questions later. Time and again, they have gas lit us by demanding that we ignore what we see before our very eyes. But the American people are not so easily fooled. The image of this brutal campaign are seared into our collective memory. The fragile innocence of the 5-year-old boy in a bunny hat being led away from his family. The maddening cruelty of a barely clothed man, a US citizen, being dragged from his house in the dead of winter. The sheer devastation we feel of seeing the lifeless bodies of Renee Good and Alex Prey. Long after the federal government’s agents of chaos pack up and leave, and long after the fraudsters, whose name this hearing was supposedly called, are prosecuted and imprisoned, the good people of Minnesota will still be picking up the pieces from these senseless acts of cruelty and violence. As we forge ahead, I hope Motans will remain grounded in a sense of justice, a sense of right and wrong. We know that the way to deter crime is to pursue offenders regardless of who they are, not to pardon them because of who they know. We understand that a key to keeping our people safe is to allow prosecutors to uphold the law, not to punish them for refusing to violate it. And we appreciate that public trust comes from building common sense anti-fraud safeguards into our programs, not by tearing down established norms. I’ve invited here today to talk about how Minnesota pursues these objectives, and I hope we can have a conversation about how to strengthen program integrity in every state in the nation. A single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar we can’t tolerate. That’s why as governor I have taken decisive action. I appointed a head of program integrity to oversee statewide anti-fraud efforts. I created the position of inspector general at the Minnesota Department of Education. At the Department of Human Services, I ordered datadriven reviews and where appropriate corrective action against providers. I’ve directed my administration to work with our partners in state, federal, and tribal law enforcement to make sure that fraudsters go to jail. Our cooperation with the FBI and the Department of Justice have led to serious criminal charges for over 75 individuals. Most importantly, year in and year out, and long before Minnesota programs were featured on right-wing social media, I’ve worked with the Minnesota legislature to give state agencies the authority they need to take action based on red flags when they discover them. There’s undoubtedly more to do. We’ll continue to do the important work of combating fraud, but as we do so, we’re going to remain true to Minnesota principles. We will feed our hungry children. We will help the poor afford healthcare. We will assist people with disabilities while also keeping fraud in check. We’ll demonstrate our decency, our integrity, and never yield to political scapegoating, particularly of our most vulnerable communities. In these extraordinarily trying times, the people of Minnesota have come together to show the world their values. I’m proud and honored to be their governor, and I look forward to today’s questions. » Thank you, Governor. We now recognize Attorney General Ellison. » Thank you, Chairman Co. Comr, and thank you, Ranking Member Garcia. And thank you to all the members of the committee. My name is Keith Ellison and I have the honor of serving as Minnesota’s attorney general. You have invited me here today to speak about the topic I feel very strongly about, fraud enforcement. I look forward to discussing the contributions of my office uh and the contributions we’ve made to fighting fraud in our state. Fraud in government programs is reprehensible. It takes food from the tables of the hungry. It takes shelter from those without it. I have worked every day as attorney general to hold fraudsters accountable and I’m proud of our record. We’ve won 300 Medicaid fraud convictions, more than any other state of similar size and recovered over $80 million for Minnesota taxpayers. We’ve returned tens of millions of dollars to victims of consumer fraud in Minnesota. Since 2019, our charities division has resolved over 50 investig investigations and dissolved 17 sham nonprofits. It’s important to note that under Minnesota law, my office has limited jurisdiction over criminal matters. The only kind of criminal case we can prosecute all on our own is Medicaid fraud. Any other kind of ca criminal case must be referred to us in uh by county attorneys. Still, we’ve punched above our weight where we do have criminal jurisdiction. I’m proud of that. Over the past six years, my Medicaid uh fraud control unit has ranked fifth in the nation in fraud convictions. Last week, I urged the state legislators to pass a bipartisan medical assistance protection act, which would give us additional resources to prosecute Medicaid fraudsters. Where fraud occurs outside of our jurisdiction, my office has and will continue assisting our local and federal partners when our help is requested. We support our 87 county attorneys in Minnesota and we regularly coordinate with federal investigators investigators and prosecutors to combat fraud. That type of collaboration between enforcers at all levels of the government is essential in this fight. And that is why if we are to discuss law enforcement efforts in Minnesota, we cannot ignore the devastating effects of Operation Metro Search. As you know, the Trump administration on the pretext of fighting fraud unleashed over 3,000 masked armed agents on the streets of Minnesota. And as a result, two US citizens were killed by federal agents, Renee Good and Alex Prey. Federal law enforcement still refuses to cooperate with us in investigating their deaths. Young innocent children were detained and traumatized. Schools and businesses were forced to close, costing countless families their jobs, their livelihoods, their education, and costing our state hundreds of millions of dollars in economic damage. Operation Metro Surge did nothing to address fraud in our state. It harmed our economy. It scarred our people. And it dealt a devastating blow to fraud enforcement in Minnesota. As a result of Metro Surge, federal prosecutor’s efforts to fight fraud in Minnesota have suffered a major setback. In the US attorney’s office, six high-ranking attorneys resigned because of the Department of Justice pressured them to investigate Renee Good’s grieving widow. Eight more prosecutors then followed. The remaining staff should be spending their time prosecuting fraudsters and criminals. Instead, they are drowning in immigration related petitions resulting from Operation Metro Surge. Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I we cannot combat fraud without consistent messaging and support from our political leaders. All sides, Republicans and Democrats, the federal government and the states, must work together if we’re going to win the fight against those who would steal from the public. We need our leaders to unite in that effort, not to use it as a political tool to score political points. I stand ready and willing to work with the members of this committee to advance the cause of holding fraudsters accountable. Now more than ever, we need coordinated cooperative engagement across law enforcement if we are to achieve our goals. I look forward to your questions. » Thank you, General. I now recognize Reverend Tolgard for her opening statement. Chairman, ranking members, member of the members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I am the Reverend Mariah Tolgard and I serve as senior pastor at Hamlin Church United Methodist in St. Paul, Minnesota. I come before you today in my personal capacity as a pastor, as a citizen, as a mother, an ordinary motan who has witnessed up close the fear and harm that operation metro surge has inflicted on our state. The hearing today is about fraud in Minnesota, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has brought to the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rationale for deploying 3,000 federal immigration enforcement agents into our state in operations that target the most vulnerable among us, but are indiscriminately impacting all of us. Let me tell you about what this looks like where I live. In my church, members have been afraid to come to worship and have even postponed funerals. An elderly M man in our city, a US citizen, was taken from his home in the freezing cold, wearing only his underwear and a blanket. ICE vehicles drive recklessly through our neighborhoods in packs of four to six, stopping people of color for proof of citizenship, including a local police officer. In St. Paul public schools where my three daughters attend. Nearly a quarter of students enrolled in distance learning because families were too afraid to leave their homes. My 8-year-old struggles to sleep at night because she is afraid ICE agents might break into our house. At local elementary schools in Minnesota and across the country, students are practicing drills for what to do if ice is near their school. Let that sit with you. American children are now practicing two kinds of drills at school. One for an active shooter and one to protect themselves from their own government. That is not security. That is a nation failing its children. This is happening to all of our neighbors in Minnesota. Every motan has stories that will stay with you. From hearing of someone hiding in a walking cooler or the back room when I stormed into their workplace to friends and family members being followed when dropping off their children at daycare. In Minnesota, we love our neighbors. We care for one another. And because we believe that every person bears the image of God, we’ve built systems that reflect that belief. Free meals for all children, health care for families who need it, schools where every kid belongs. That’s what love of neighbor looks like in action. This administration has targeted Minnesota because we live out our values of loving our neighbors. These tactics aimed at undermining those values have not succeeded. When unidentified masked agents appeared on our streets, motans put on their own uniforms and it said neighbor. Motivated by faith and conscience. We bought groceries for families in hiding. We paid rent. We drove children to school. We stood vigil at mosques. We served as constitutional observers. We pledged to care for children if parents were detained. We sang. We marched. We prayed. As a pastor, I say to you, if you feel even a flicker of discomfort hearing these stories, pay attention to it. If you hear about children like Liam Ramos, if you saw the videos of the murders of Alex Prey and Renee Good, if you know of workers arrested in the very restaurants where they serve federal agents their meals, if you understand that citizens and legal residents have been wrongfully detained and something in you tightens, that is not partisanship. That is conscience. In my faith tradition, we call that the still, quiet voice, the voice of God. It’s not too late to listen, to change our minds, our hearts, and our policies. To the members of this committee and our leaders across government, the question I leave with you is simple. What are you willing to do about it? Your silence has a cost, and it is being paid right now by children who cannot sleep, families who cannot grieve, and communities that are hollowed out. to Americans across the country and those watching from home and particularly to the families still too afraid to leave their houses. There are more people fighting for you than you know. Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25, “Whatever you do for the least of these, you do unto me.” History will tell its story about us, but long before then, our own souls will know whether we stood with them or turned away. No nation can build a true future on the terror of its own people. Security built on fear security will shatter the first time it is tested. Only a community that chooses love of neighbor over fear will endure and that is still within our power to become. Thank you for allowing me to share our story. I am deeply proud to be a motan. » Thank you. Without objection, Majority Whip Tom Emmer from Minnesota and Representative McCollum of also of Minnesota are waved on to the committee for the purpose of questioning witnesses at today’s committee hearing. Without objection, so ordered. I now Okay. Uh I’d like to recognize Representative McCullum for a UC. » Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh I would like to for the record have a unanimous request put in with a statement. Thank you. » Without objection. So ordered. Uh we’ll now begin our questions. And chair recognizes the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Mr. Jordan from Ohio. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Governor, why didn’t you tell the truth? Why didn’t you just tell the truth about the Feeding Our Future program? This program, my understanding, received $3 million the first year. within a couple years was getting $200 million of taxpayer money. Whistleblowers raised concerns. As the chairman said, auditors raised concerns. Everybody raised concerns. March 30th, 2021, the payments are stopped. And a little over a month later, the payments are restarted. Why didn’t you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? » Well, chairman, we we did tell you. and feeding our future grew because of the pandemic. And uh » when asked that question, I said, “Why didn’t you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? The payments stopped because there were concerns obviously wouldn’t stop the payments. Then they’re restarted a month later. What was the reason for restarting the payments?” » My understanding was the the agency believed that the court had required them to make those payments » and that was false, wasn’t it? You repeated that. You said that, didn’t you? That’s why the reason you said the reason you restart is because the court ordered you to do so. Is that right? » I don’t believe that is settled yet. Uh to the best of my knowledge. » Well, I think it is because the court did something that I just don’t I don’t know if I’ve ever seen it. They issued a statement saying you were wrong in what you were saying. This is from the court. It says, “Feeding our future versus Minnesota Department of Education, correcting reports and statements by Governor Tim Walls concerning orders issued by the court.” Here’s what the judge says. Governor Tim Walls told the media that the Minnesota Department of Education attempted in payments to FOF because of possible fraud, but that judge Gusman Authman ordered payments to continue in April 2021. Next sentence, that is false. So, you said something that wasn’t true. He further states this, “Judge Guth,” the court says this, “Judge Guthman never ordered the Department of Education to resume payments defeating our future in April 2021 or at any other time.” So, I want to know why didn’t you tell the truth, » Congressman, the attorneys at the Department of Education interpreted that differently. Both of those judges are no longer on the bench. And I think that interpretation » the very first sentence, the first seven words, this is not some unnamed source talking to the New York Times. This is not some anonymous source talking to whatever your Minnesota Star Tribune or whatever your paper is. This is the court speaking first sentence, first seven words. Due to inaccurate statements by the governor, Ramsey County District Court Judge has issued and authorized that this following news released. That’s pretty straightforward. So, the court’s lying. » I I I can’t tell you, Congressman, but the interpretation » somebody’s lying. Somebody’s lying because you can’t say the court ordered you to restart the payments and then the court says, “We didn’t order you to restart the payment.” So, either you’re lying or the court’s lying. And I’m just asking you which one is it. » I just simply know what the attorneys at the agency believe that it was a misinterpretation. And I would note that those » maybe you were trying to hide behind the court, Governor. Could that maybe be the reason why you issued the statements you did and why the court had to do something you never see done before? They issue a press statement saying you’re wrong. The governor is wrong. His statement is their words, not mine. False. » Could that be the reason? » That was not the interpretation of the attorneys and and you know court work. You can appeal those congressman as you well know. I’m sure » they’re all about politics governor. » No, it’s c it’s about taking care of our people which Minnesota does better than anyone else. 3 million. The behavioral intervention program went from 3 million to 400 million in 5 years. The housing stabilization went from 2.6 million to 104 million. The integrated community supports went from 4.6 million to 170 million in 3 years. This is unbelievable what’s happening. And you’re trying to hide behind some pretend court order, some court order that didn’t exist. Uh, Governor, who’s Casey Magg? » I don’t know who Casey Maggan is. » Well, I’ll tell you. Mr. Megan is a Somali American and a fraud investigator in the guy beside you’s office in the attorney general’s office. And here’s what he said. There was a perception that forcefully tackling this issue might cause political backlash among the Somali community which is a core voting block. Did that have anything to do with this whole fraud scheme that went on in your state governor? » It did not. Congressman » did not. So you’re now you’re saying Mr. Casey Magg is a lying is lying too. » I’m not. » You’re the only one telling the truth in the whole state. Mr. Maggan who’s a fraud investigator at the attorney general’s office says it’s politics. The court says » I couldn’t speak for Mr. Magg. You asked me a question. » I know. I’m asking » and I said no when you asked me the question. » I’m saying and I’m saying Casey Maggan said just the opposite. So the court’s wrong and Casey Maggan’s wrong. You’re the only guy right. » How many people have been indicted in your state right now? Do you know, Governor? » I don’t have those numbers with me. » You don’t? » 98 people been indicted. You happen to know how many are Somali American? » I don’t. We don’t investigate or prosecute people based on ethnicity related. » Neither do I. We shouldn’t do that. But I but Mr. Megan is a Somali American who just said that the core one of the one of the concerns was this is a core voting block. And I just want to know if you know how many the 98 people have been indicted in your state are Somali. » I don’t their ethnicity is not my concern. » 85% of the people indicted were Somali American key voting block. And I think that’s what drove this whole thing. That I yield back. » Gentleman yields back. Before I recognize the ranking member, it’s my understanding Mr. Biggs, you seek recognition. » Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have some UC’s. Um, here you go. Biden clemency for convicted fosters met with outrage. Next one. Biden’s clemency and pardon list includes former elected officials. Next one. The drug dealers, thieves, and gang leaders granted clemency by Joe Biden. Next one. North Dakota judge blast Biden for setting fraudsters free. Next one. victims shocked after Biden grants Clemency to kids for cash. Who has next one who has Joe Biden pardon? » Thank you, Mr. » Without objection. So ordered, chair now recognizes ranking member Garcia from California. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank of course our witnesses again for being here. Now, of course, over the past two months, countless brave motans have shared their stories of heartbreak and violence and terror, not just with us in this committee, but with AC with folks across the country. Peaceful protesters are being shot in the streets. Children have snatched been snatched from their schools. People dragged from their cars and tackled at work. And we know the parents of course have been missing work. And children have been missing school. Now Reverend Tolgard, I want the country to really understand the effects on kids. Are you seeing families who can’t go to work, who can’t go grocery shopping, and who can’t take their kids to school or the library or the park because they’re terrified to leave their home? Are you seeing that? Yes, that’s what we are seeing in Minnesota. » And this includes, of course, US citizens, right? We’re talking about also families, US citizen families and kids who are United States citizens. Is that is that correct? » Yes. People who are US citizens and legal residents. » Well, thank you. I want to um just show this image here. This is an image of some kids, including, by the way, one of Liam Ramos’s classmates. These are kids that are being held at US detention centers and detention facilities. Now, Reverend Tolgard, when children hear about thousands of kids being detained, reportedly almost 4,000, that must be terrifying. Is that correct? » That is absolutely terrifying for children to hear these stories and to fear for that experience. » And would you say that kids are scared at their school? » Kids are scared at their schools. » Parents are scared of what’s going to happen to their children. Would you say that is correct also? » That is correct. » Well, thank you. Now, we’re discussing the violence and brutality that’s happened. And I want to show another image that’s kind of difficult, I think, to to see, but I think it’s important for the American public to continue to see it. Now, this is the driver’s seat of Renee Good’s car seat after an a ICE agent shot her dead. Now, Reverend Tolgard, are families in your community afraid that this sort of horrific image could happen to them next? » Yes. » Are kids scared that this type of horrific image could happen to one of their parents? Kids like my own, kids like the kids in my church are afraid that that could happen to their parents when they speak out. » And let’s remember that an ICE agent specifically told a protester, “Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days. This is just two days after Renee Good was shot.” That is being told to people on the ground in Minneapolis and across the country, across Minnesota. And it’s not acceptable. We should be clear here. This violence does not make us safer. It does not address fraud, waste, and abuse. It doesn’t help families with health care. Does not grow or build small businesses. And it certainly, as we’re continue to discuss, is not preventing the kind of fraud that Republicans are discussing here today. Now, Governor, can you walk us through specifically how Operation Metro Surge affected Minnesota’s ability to investigate actual fraud? Well, thank you, Congressman. Well, first of all, as I’ve said, we’ve been partners with the federal uh our federal partners, whether that be the FBI or be the US attorney’s office, which I will note was one of the premier US attorney’s office, regardless of who they were appointed by. Uh right now, those lead investigators and basically that whole team has left that office. They’ve not been filled back in. the US attorney himself was in front of a federal judge yesterday um on contempt issues of the that office not working together. Now look, we’re going to prosecute as we have every single person that’s involved in fraud, but we can’t do it alone. The attorney general’s office is doing everything they can. He has consistently come and ask the legislature for for more more money, more more of the investigators he needs. But right now is the backlog at the US Attorney’s Office is being challenged by the federal courts. Uh it makes it more difficult for us to get those cases over to them. But the good news is the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension uh is continuing to do those. We got a conviction this week. Um those are things that’ll continue on. And while we need to put in all the safeguards, we need to, as you heard the attorney general’s opening statement, if we partner together in this, our chance of defeating this fraud is is that much higher. But right now, um, it’s styied. There’s no investigators over. There’s no US attorneys. The FBI has been decimated, and it’s very difficult. And that that right there the American American public needs to hear. I mean, it’s completely outrageous what’s happened to those that are actually trying to take on fraud in Minnesota and across the country. Those those offices have been decimated and there’s no support. Not acceptable. And and Governor, finally, there appears to be actually no evidence that ICE and DHS reign of terror in Minnesota that continues has actually prevented any fraud. Is that your assessment, sir? » That’s correct. the what you saw on the streets didn’t do anything to it. And we’ve we’ve actively asked if you have folks who can help us, if you have folks who are good at at the forensics, if you’re that can help us do this, we want you there as we have uh for the last seven years that I’ve been governor. We partnered together and convicted people. » Thank you. And with that, I also just for the record want to introduce our report as well uh today. The Democratic staff released it as well as far as relates to this hearing and operation metro surge. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman. » Without objection. So, order. Chair now recognizes our majority whip, Representative Emmer from Minnesota. » Thank you, Chairman Comr. And actually, thank you, uh, Governor Walls and Attorney General Ellison for appearing before the committee today. Gentlemen, let’s see if we can agree on at least one thing today. Today’s hearing is titled Oversight of Fraud and Misuse of Federal Funds in Minnesota. Can we agree that this fraud is a serious thing, Governor Walls? Yes or no? Can we agree on that? » Yes. Any fraud is serious. Thank you. Because it’s interesting that you and I agree that it’s a serious thing considering the man sitting next to you, your attorney general, Keith Ellison, uh, just two months ago said, quote, “This is a political matter. This is not a serious thing.” End quote. Attorney General Ellison, is there an organized crime ring operating in Minnesota? I’ll answer for you, sir. Governor Walls believes there is an active crime ring in our state. In October, the governor said, quote, “We’ve got an organized crime ring in Minnesota. I think it’s been going on for years.” Moving on, Mr. Ellison, I along with millions of Americans have grave concerns over your alleged relationships with Somali fraudsters who have since been charged and convicted of federal crimes. I’m sure you are aware that over 90% of the defendants charged in the Feeding Our Future fraud case are of Somali descent. In fact, you have personal knowledge of these people. There’s a 54minute audio tape of your meeting with these criminals in December of 2021. And during your meeting, they complained to you about increased scrutiny of their nonprofits, and you told them, quote, “Of course, I’m here to help.” End quote. It’s on the internet. Anyone can listen to you say that. Since then, you claim you were not aware of their crimes in the $250 million feeding our future scheme, the largest pandemic fraud case in the nation. But just weeks after your December 2021 meeting, the FBI executed search warrants that you never would have requested in the Feeding Our Future fraud investigation. Now, let’s fast forward to September of 2022, 10 months after you met with the Somali fraudsters. Your office issued a press release stating, quote, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison and his office have been deeply involved for two years in holding Feeding Our Future accountable. End quote. So, according to your office, sir, you have been deeply involved in the Feeding Our Future case since September of 2020. That actually sounds like you are saying that at the time of your infamous meeting with the Somali fraudsters. You were already aware of the allegations of fraud. When you had this meeting in December 2021, did you know, sir, about the longunning FBI investigation in defeating our future? Yes or no? » Mr. Chairman, uh, M. Representative Emmer, » reclaiming my time, when did you personally become aware of the FBI investigation? That’s all I’m asking. Representative Emmer, as you know, I have addressed this issue many times. » All right. In reclaiming my time, in that same meeting with the fraudsters, I Mr. Attorney General, you took aim at the Minnesota Department of Education. You stated that the Minnesota Department of Education had fought the nonprofit in very disgusting ways in a very racist, xenophobic, and islamophobic manner. You actually asked for the names of all these folks who are just hung up and offered to call the Minnesota Department of Education to quote demand some explanations. We now know that when you made these comments, the Biden DOJ was working with the Minnesota Department of Education and that their work exposed the massive fraud ring. Pretty bad look for you, sir. Either you were oblivious to what was going on under your nose or worse, you were trying to obstruct the work of the Minnesota Department of Education. So, I can see the time is getting short. I I Mr. Chairman, we are left with two questions. One, what did Governor Walls and Keith Ellison know about the fraud? And two, when did they actually know it? I would suggest that if they do not give direct and truthful answers to both these questions at this hearing, then they both need to be put under oath in a deposition. This is a serious thing. Mr. Attorney General, you are the only one who thinks protecting taxpayer dollars is political. Mr. Ellison, my concern is that you actively obstructed this investigation in exchange for campaign donations, a quidd proquo. If these concerns are proven to be true, you should be disbarred and you should go to jail. I yield back. » Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes Miss Norton from Washington, DC. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, it is critical that the federal government support people who need assistance with food, housing, and health care. Unfortunately, as long as the government provides these services, there will be bad actors trying to take advantage of them. We need to prevent and identify these frauders so that social services can reach those who need them. However, we cannot recklessly deny help to many people who need services because of a few bad actors. Um, my Republican colleagues have now held two hearings to talk about fraud in one single state, but they have completely ignored the fact that the Trump administration is the most corrupt administration in history. If Republicans really cared about fraud, abuse, and holding criminals accountable, they would call them out. Donald Trump for far for firing 17 inspectors general. These internal watchd dogs are the front line of rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse of federal agencies. is the Trump administration has also retaliated against whistleblowers, whistleblowers, and allowed administration officials to engage in serious conflicts of interest that often cross the line into out fraud, outright corruption. We need inspectors general whistleblower protections and rules prohibiting conflicts of interest to protect federal programs and make sure that people can get the services they need. Across the country, Americans are struggling to afford their health care premiums and groceries. The Trump administration should be strengthening the social safety net, not cutting the safeguards that catch the fraudsters uh taking advantage of it. And I yield back. » Gentle lady yields back. I’ll now recognize myself for five minutes. Governor Waltz and Attorney General Ellson. My questions are going to be simple and direct. Governor Wal, you were inaugurated as governor on January 17th, 2019 and have served in that role through two terms ever since. Correct. » That’s correct, Mr. Chairman. » During the time period 2019 and 2020, while you were serving as governor, isn’t it true that state auditors and officials raised concerns about fraud and vulnerabilities in programs overseen by your administration? » I I can’t confirm that, but I’m assuming we have always ongoing. » I’ll take that as a yes. Those warnings were communicated to senior officials in your administration, including yourself. Correct. » I I can’t speak if it was direct. » I think the correct answer to that would also be yes. Despite those warnings, you did not order a broad stop payment or suspension of payment in any program at that time. Correct. » We’re not going to stop payments of feed children until we have the proof that things happen. In 2019, we did start taking action. I went to the legisle of that legislature. Governor Waltz, when fraud concerns were raised early in your tenure in the child care assistance program, did your administration stop payments at that time? » The the child care assistance program in the » The answer is is no. When fraud concerns were raised, » would you like me to answer or not? » Well, it’s yes or no. » I’m trying. I want you to help. » You’ve already answered the question. You said you didn’t ever stop payments. And that’s what the problem is and that’s what the Democrats are complaining about. Oh my gosh, Trump stopped payments. Well, my god, you you lost billions to fraud in Minnesota. That’s what this hearing’s about. Mr. Chairman, you didn’t stop payments because you didn’t want to rock the boat. » And and when fraud concerns were raised, » when fraud concerns were raised in Medicaid, home and community based services, did your administration stop payments? No, you you did not. When fraud concerns were raised in non-emergency medical transportation, did your administration stop payments? Chairman, if I could mention what a stop payment meant by what the administration did last week is 400,000 children without healthcare. Are you stopping payment if one person » We believe that’s your fault and the attorney general’s fault because you you do nothing about fraud even though everyone in America sees » our Medicare error rate is lower than your state. » Fraud, you have been defrauded. You have not been good stewards of the taxpayer dollars. And the Democrat position is well keep the money flowing. The American taxpayers have had enough. I don’t I think that’s a fair characterization. They want their taxpayer dollars spent wisely. We all support social program, but if you’re going to waste the money to to fraudsters, then we have to stop and recalculate. » We’re not we’re putting them in jail when we can, Chairman. And some of these these programs are crafted in such a way that there’s a procedure to follow. And I’m with you. I $1 is too much. I don’t think there’s a lot of difference here if you want to help us get at this. The question is, is it a sledgehammer? Is it a scapel? I understand there’s no political upside. » Let’s let’s get get into what we’ve we’ve talked you you eventually did pause payments in certain programs, but that wasn’t until late 2025 after the federal government stepped in. Is that correct? » I don’t I don’t think that’s a fair characterization of stepped in. We’ve been partners in this and working on them. But » let’s let’s move on. And that that decision occurred only after large-scale fraud had already taken place for years now. Governor Waltz, employees inside state agencies raised concerns about fraud and improper payments for years. Is that correct? » Inside agencies, we’ve been prosecuting them for years. That yes, » they have raised concern. Agencies have raised concern about fraud in Minnesota. Correct. » Each of those Yes. When they do and they’re prosecuted, » some some of those employees faced retaliation after raising those concerns. Is that correct? » That is not correct, Chairman. » Okay. Okay. Minnesota has strong whistleblower protections. » Attorney General Ellison, you are the chief legal officer of the state of Minnesota, correct? » Yes. » Your office advises agencies on compliance with federal and state law. Correct. » Yes. » Retaliation against whistleblowers reporting fraud is unlawful. Correct. » That is right. » At any point during your tenure, did you tell state agencies to stop payments due to credible fraud allegations? Yes or no? Sir, we prosecuted over 300 people in the Medicaid fraud area. 300 I would predict as a drop in the bucket. But but you’ve never said to stop payments. That’s what » it’s it’s one of the highest rates in the country, sir. » Well, you have one of the highest fraud rates in the country in Minnesota. » And that’s not true. And my office doesn’t have the authority to do a stop payment. We prosecute criminals when they’re presented us by by the agency. » So So the answer is no. Unfortunately, no one’s ever from your office said to stop payments until we can get the fraud under control. So, to summarize, you both knew about fraud, risk, and payments continued. Our investigation has shown that whistleblowers were alerted about the widespread fraud were ignored, sidelined, and even retaliated against. Only after federal authorities ultimately stepped in did you take any action. It’s not this committee’s responsibility to decide guilt or or uh dole out punishment, but it’s clear there was a massive failure of oversight and quite frankly a failure of leadership. One wonders whether either of you should bear some personal responsibility for the billions of dollars siphoned off by fraudsters under your noses in the state that you led. Again, this isn’t for the committee to decide, but based on your answers today and apparent failure to take any responsibility, still the answer to that question has become abundantly clear. And now I recognous consent to enter items into the record. » All right. Before I recognize Mr. Lynch, Miss Randall, you have a you say. » Thank you. Um, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a November 12th, 2025 article from Pope ProPublica entitled, “How Trump has exploited pardons and clemency to reward allies and supporters,” which shows President Trump rewards those in his good graces. I also seek recognition to insert into the record a Washington Post article from December 19th, 2025 entitled, “Trump’s pardons wipe out payments to defrauded victims,” which shows that President Trump lets criminals and frauders walk free. And I also seek unanimous consent to enter into the record an article from May 29th, 2025 from ABC News titled, “Trump’s flurry of pardons includes some objection contributors.” » And uh Miss Miss uh Presley, we’ll do one at a time. We’ll go to Mr. Lynch, then I’ll recognize you, Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you, my friend. Attorney General Ellison, good to see you again. Uh, Reverend, thank you for your willingness to testify before the committee. I want to shift gears here a minute and I want to focus on ice. Uh, so I was recently asked to serve as the co-chair of the FIFA 26 uh soccer tournament. It’s a global tournament, the largest sporting event in the world. And uh my home city of Boston has been asked to to to host uh a lot of the games. Uh in Boston, we’re going to we’ll host uh teams from Morocco, Ghana, Bolivia, Iraq, Scotland, France, England, and Surinom. Uh we’ll also uh host over three million foreign national visitors who are coming into Boston for these tournaments. And uh we recently learned from the Trump administration that ICE will play a key role in the security operations during those games. So we’ve got all these people flying in, foreign nationals, uh a lot of different countries, South America and elsewhere. Uh, Governor, since you’ve had direct and relevant experience on dealing with uh the metro surge and and the security operations uh of ICE, I was interested in getting your thoughts and your observations and any recommendations you might have to help us with with confronting our experience or what we expect uh to see uh during these games with with ICE coming in as well as uh so many foreign visitors. » Well, as I think the world saw, and don’t take my word for it, take professional law enforcement across Minnesota and across the country. Um, the most unprofessional, aggressive uh force that I I think you could imagine. And I was here in front of this committee and answered all your questions on June 12th. And I warned this committee what a masked group of folks turned loose in an American city could do. And I I’m not, if I’m not mistaken, I said someone could get killed doing this. And I just want to be very clear about this. When Tom Holman had to come in to clean up the mess of of Secretary Gnome and Greg Bevino, Secretary Holman himself acknowledged Minnesota follows the law exactly as I told you in this committee. So my advice to you, Mr. Lynch, is to get very public upfront commitments from these folks. While I disagree with Mr. Holman’s views on many things. He’s at least professional enough that he pulled the leash back and pulled these folks out of Minnesota after again misrepresenting the number of people they were detaining. Misrepresenting before he got there exactly what Minnesota did. And I’m just going to name it on accountability. The Secretary of DHS being chastised by Republican senators added insult to injury to Minnesota, pouring salt in the wounds of the parents of Alex Prey and Renee Good’s family by not even apologizing or acknowledging. And if you want accountability for the one of the times, as far as I know, the attorneys know better, we are not being included in the investigation. And the actions that were taken of a gentleman who was shot in the leg was the night that Christy Gnome called me a domestic terrorist and said that this gentleman was attacking federal agents. Well, now we know the story. They lied. They are now under investigation. They being the federal agents. So, look, I’m with you. I want your help on fraud. Why would I not want money to go to the programs I care deeply about? Feeding people, clothing people, housing people. But what ICE did disrupted everything that we were doing. It disrupted our federal partners and it forced our law enforcement agencies who have worked hard to gain the public trust to have the public believe in them. So my advice to you is and especially when the world’s coming to see this, let Boston’s finest lead. Let the people of Massachusetts lead. Let the 10th Amendment stand for something and allow us to be able to do this. The people of Minnesota will hold us accountable if they don’t feel we’re doing a good enough job. But to demonize and retribution against a state, in the words of the president, in the words of the vice president, have done nothing. So, Mr. Lynch, um, the world should be looking forward to coming, but I would get it up front and I would make sure that Boston’s police department are in the lead. » Thank you. Uh, Attorney General Ellison, we need coordination between law enforcement agencies. It’s a big job. What what are your views on that likelihood of cooperation from ICE? » Well, I hope you get the cooperation that you need. Uh in Minnesota, we don’t have a good record of cooperation, which is interesting because so many times in the past, we have had great cooperation between local federal enforcers and local state ones and we’ve just worked seamlessly. Nowadays, that has all changed and that’s quite unfortunate. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you for the courtesy. » Gentleman yields back. Uh, Miss Presley, » thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a February uh, 2026 letter from 200 state lawmakers urging Congress to exercise its oversight authority and demand the administration immediately restore full child care funding that had frozen four or five states. » Without objection, it’s ordered. Chair recognizes Dr. Fox from North Carolina. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here. Governor, you’ve reminded people that you were here last June. At that time, I reminded you that the feeding our future scam made Minnesota ground zero for the largest CO 19 fraud scheme in the nation. 250 million in federal taxpayer funds were taken out of the mouths of hungry children and as the FBI noted, they were quote funneled into luxury homes, cars, and lavish lifestyles while families struggled. You assured me then that you wholeheartedly supported the federal government’s effort to bring those responsible to justice. I appreciate your sentiment, but a person’s actions matter more than their words. Governor Waltz, when did you first become aware of the fraud in feeding our future? A specific date, please. » Well, Congressman, it’s good it’s good to see you. And having served in your job for 12 years, I can tell you my job is a little different as governor for 7 years. I take a lot of meetings. Um I certainly don’t wouldn’t specifically state, but I think during that pandemic, I think by late 2020, we started to see uh the irregularities. They were flagged and I will note that we cooperated. » State officials, state officials were aware of the fraud in early 2020. So you’re asking when I in my office the governor became good and I don’t have a specific date but what I would say is » we provided witnesses documents the US attorney and the FBI and 79 of those people have been prosecuted going back to 2022. » Okay. Well, when I was chair of the committee on education in the workforce, I issued you a subpoena in September 2024 because you and your administration were not forthcoming about how your administration quote failed to identify what has been described as the largest pandemic fraud in the nation. End quote. In September 2024, you were aware of the feeding our future fraud and your administration’s handling of it. Correct? Yes or no? 2024. » Yes. By that time, we had already put people in jail and had extensively investigated. » This committee has testimony that the Minnesota Department of Education briefed your office about the Feeding Our Futures draft lawsuit and litigation hold on April 28th, 2020. That Let me jog your memory. Is that correct? » I can’t speak specifically to that. And it » was April 2020. That means Feeding Our Future received a total of over 200 million in federal funds after you and your administration knew about the fraud concerns. Why didn’t you stop sending money to feeding our future as soon as the fraud concerns were raised? » Congressman is following the program. We notified USGAA under the Trump administration’s first term. We had notified them too because it’s a program administered out of USDA and they were working to work through the process eventually. » Didn’t you say you were f fearful of political retaliation? » No, I never said any such thing. » I never said any such thing. » Well, that’s what we understood. You were afraid of political retaliation. So given the size and scope of the feeding our futures fraud, I think you and your administration would have been on high alert looking for additional fraud in the state. But after seeing the handling of Feeding Our Futures and its 250 million in fraud, it came as no surprise to learn that even more staggering amounts of fraud estimated at up to $9 billion were uncovered in the child care assistance program, the Minnesota Medicaid program, and other programs. How could you allow such massive fraud schemes in your state to get to this point? Congresswoman, we don’t we don’t see anything by 9 million. Local press and everyone reports it about 300 million, but as I’ve said, if it’s $1, it’s too much. But we started in 2019 putting anti-fraud programs forward. After feeding our future, we started going through and making sure every program had the integrity in it that it needed. And that’s why you see convictions. That’s why you see these. » Why did it take nearly seven years for you to get engaged to stop the fraud? Seven years. We started in 2019, Congresswoman. It may it may be a surprise if you arrest someone for stealing a car, other people are still going to try and steal cars. What we’ve tried to do is bring program integrity. But I’ll go back to this. We’re not going to shut down programs that have things that are going well in it. And we need to find that proper balance. And I’ve acknowledged that every year we’re putting things in place and inspector. » Governor Waltz, Governor Waltz, you did not do your job. You did not do your job. You did not protect taxpayer dollars. You allowed massive fraud. You and Mr. Ellison allowed massive fraud to go on in the state of Minnesota. And it it is unfortunate as somebody said that you can’t be held personally responsible at this stage of the game. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. » Gentle lady yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. Christo Morte from Illinois. » Thank you, Mr. Chair. Governor Walls, you’ve seen firsthand the brutal excessive force used by ICE and CBP agents in Minnesota. Unfortunately, we saw this the same tactics employed in Chicago during Operation Midway Blitz. I want to turn now to ICE and CBP’s horrific pattern of abuse. Secretary Gnome went to our cities ostensibly under the guise of arresting quote the worst of the worst. But in Illinois, less than 3% of those arrested during Operation Midway Blitz had criminal histories. In Minnesota, the vast majority of those detained had never been in trouble with the law. Correct. » I believe that’s correct, Congressman. » There were also more than 170 cases this year where ICE and CBP detained US citizens. US citizens should never be detained by ICE. Correct. » That is correct. According to » I would hope we all could agree on that. » Well, I hope so, too. According to the Chicago Sun Times, federal agents have pepper-sprayed children, including this one-year-old baby in Chicago. And children should never be pepper-sprayed, right? » I would hope we could all agree on that, too. They should not. » And according to the Independent, CBP agents dragged a 67year-old US citizen out of his car, breaking his ribs and causing internal bleeding. No person should be subjected to that kind of treatment, right? » They should not. Congressman » Attorney General Ellison, let me turn to another topic. In President Trump’s second term, ICE has become America’s highest funded federal law enforcement agency with a budget of more than $85 billion. If ICE were an army, this budget would make it the 13th largest army in the world. Let’s look at where that money has gone. Last year, DHS spent $172 million on two private luxury jets for Secretary Gnome. I assume you’re not aware of a stop payment on that particular payment, right? » No, I’m not, sir. Republican Senator John Kennedy yesterday grilled Secretary Gnome about a $220 million ad campaign featuring her prominently, including on this horse in front of Mount Rushmore. Secretary Kennedy suggested this was wasteful spending, and I agree. Um, I assume you’d agree with that as well, right? » I do. » This gross misuse of funds must end now and Secretary Gnome must be held accountable. Not tomorrow, not next week. Now, Chicago was ground zero for for Secretary Gnome’s overreach when she launched Operation Midway Blitz. Chicago media reported that ICE and CBP agents had pepper-sprayed a one-year-old baby, shot at a pastor, harassed seniors, tased US citizens, and even killed a person. It’s clear that Midway Blitz was never intended to make Chicago safer. In December, ICE and CBP began Operation Metro Surge in Minnesota. Over 3,000 agents were sent to one state. There were military-style raids at child care centers. Child, children kept home from school. Adults postponing medical care. In Minneapolis, Renee Good and Alex Prey, both US citizens, were fatally shot by federal officers. It’s clear that Operation Metro Surge was never intended to make Minnesota safer. But this is not isolated to just Illinois and Minnesota. Inside detention centers across the country, the suffering continues. Detainees report physical and sexual abuse, medical neglect, and pressure to self-deport. On top of that brutality, Christy Gnome is misusing funds to buy herself private jets and enrich her associates. Christine Gnome is testifying in the House Judiciary Committee today. But she must come before this committee to explain the rampant corruption and waste within her agency. DHS is out of control. There is no congressional oversight. I was denied entrance to to ICE facilities twice in Illinois. There’s no accountability. Secretary Gnome has still not appeared before this committee, nor has she responded in a substantive manner to more than 1 dozen letters I’ve sent her. There are no consequences. Gnome is still the leader of DHS despite regularly breaking the law and abusing her authority. Secretary Gnome must answer for her wrongdoing. For Haimemeay, my State of the Union guest, who raises his little sister after his father was coerced into self-deportation. For Chicago and Marimar Martinez, who was shot five times, for my constituent Evelyn, an 18-year-old US citizen who was wrongfully detained by ICE, for Renee Good, Alex Prey, and Sylio Viegas Gonzalez, and all the other victims of ICE and CBP, for the American people, it’s for all those reasons that, Mr. Chairman, pursuant to clause 2K6 of House Rule 11, I move to subpoena Christine Gnome to testify before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. This is for every family impacted by Christine Gnome’s terror campaign. They demand answers and so do I. A motion is ma has been made. The committee will hold this motion in obeyance until the end of today’s hearing. The committee will now proceed with today’s hearing. And I want to remind everyone, I believe Christy Norm’s testifying uh in front of the Homeland Security Committee in the House today after testifying in the Senate yesterday. » Chair uh before I recognize Mr. Cloud, I believe uh Mr. Higgins has a UC Mr. Chairman ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an interview from 2024 December 2024 the Minnesota Star Tribune with Governor Walls noting the uh federal investigation into the early intensive developmental and behavioral intervention program the EIDBI program serving autism patients since its first year of inception in 2017 growing from 1.7 million per year to over 400 million per year. Unanimous consent. Yes, sir. » Without objection, so ordered. Chair now recognizes Mr. Cloud from Texas. » Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. This hearing was designed to be a a hearing looking into the massive expansion of some of the social programs and the fraud that was contained therein. But Reverend Tolgard, I was struck by part of your opening statement because you invoked Matthew 25, and that’s a scripture we see tossed around a lot uh up here, but often without context. And so I went and got my Bible and thought we’d dig into Matthew 25 for a minute. The scripture you in invoked was uh Matthew 25:35-4. It ends with this. It says, “Then the righteous will answer to him, Lord, when did we see you hungry, feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? And when did we and when did we see you a stranger and invite you in or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you? And the king will answer to them truly I say to you to the extent that you did one of the one of these brothers mine even the least of them you did this to me. Uh I I would ask you who’s the you in that passage? » Thank you for your question. You meaning all of us the followers of of Christ. » Followers of Christ. Right. In Matthew 24:3 it says after Jesus was sitting on the mountain of olives and the disciples came to him privately and then they asked him that began this whole chapter. Now what Christ didn’t say was to lobby your government. He said if you have you give. That’s the general biblical principle here. Uh you know 2 Corinthians chapter 9 gives us probably the best uh scriptural understanding of what charity is. It says each of you should give what you’ve decided in your heart to give. not reluctantly under compulsion for God loves a cheerful giver. Um would you say that taxes are under compulsion? » I taxes are not my area of expertise but I » But are they given under compulsion? Do you pay your taxes » as a US citizen? I pay my taxes. » Yes. Because » what happens if you don’t? we don’t have the services that we need to support our » What happens to you personally if you don’t pay your taxes? » You get in trouble. » You get in trouble. I would say that’s under compulsion. So, if we’re talking about what charities, I’m always amazed in in DC how much of we get to define our personal worth as a politician or statesman or whatever you want to call us by, how much of other people’s money we give away. Um, and and so there’s certainly a a place for a social safety net potentially, but the idea that that Matthew 25 is kind of used as a blanket statement. As a matter of fact, the parable that he gives right before that scripture that you go into is the parable of the talents where uh you see someone uh a business owner go away and he leaves three uh employees in charge and gives them each a bit of investment and uh two of them turn their investment into a profit. The one that turns it not into a profit does nothing with it. just sits on it. What does he call him? » You’re a pastor, right? » Yes, I am, sir. I don’t have that. » He calls him a wicked and a lazy servant. Uh and so, you know, scripturally speaking, God expects us to do something with what he’s given us. Now, uh Romans 13 talks about the purpose of government. You know, scripture is replete with there’s different institutions that each have a different thing. the primary job of raising our kids and taking care of our families and the institution of the family. The government has a different one. It says, “For the one in the authority is God’s servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be afraid. For the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants to bring agent of wrath on the wrongdoer.” Uh would you say that someone who commits fraud? Fraud is doing wrong. » We all are against fraud, » right? Is fraud theft? Would you agree that that’s theft? » Yes. As the eighth commandment says, “Thou shalt not steal.” Would you recommend that someone in your church go into debt to give an offering in your church? » No. » Okay. So, we have a massive program of fraud that’s being paid for by taxpayers. And it’s not really our us paying. It’s really our kids and our grandkids that are paying it. Uh and yet we continue to see this massive expansion all under the uh taken out of context of what charity is being defined as. Uh, you know, it’s interesting. I I find it odd that the left continues to bring up Matthew 25 because at the very beginning of that, right before he goes in that uh scripture that we talked with, it says Matthew 25:32, “All the nations will be gathered to him, and he will separate the people from one another as sheep and goats. He will put the sheep on his right, his goats on the left. And the king will say to those on his right, come in, you are blessed to the father, take your inheritance to the kingdom.” And those on his left, he will say, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” You know, so uh I would caution those who begin to use Matthew 25 to do so in the proper context, understanding that we have multiple biblical institutions and they each have a purpose. And the » context here is Mr. Chairman, I’d like to submit the entirety of Matthew 25 into the record. » Without objection, » Mr. Chairman, I also have a unanimous consent item. » Without obje to » Thank you. It’s a Huffington Post. » I recognize you yet, Mr. Does anybody object to Mr. Cloud? Without objection, so ordered. Now I’ll recognize Miss Randall. » Thank you, Mr. Comr. Um, I’d like to enter into the record an article from the Huffington Post yesterday. Troops being told Trump’s been anointed by Jesus to cause Armageddon in Iran. » Without objection, so ordered. Well, we do want Let’s recognize Mr. Con and then I’ll get Mr. Walkaw. Mr. Mr. Connor from California. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Waltz. Uh when I went to Minneapolis and uh was at Alex Py’s memorial, I was uh struck that by the the people there. I expected uh a lot of folks who were immigrants and I expected uh or folks who were children of immigrants who looked brown like me. And there at the memorial were fourth and fifth generation motans. most of them white Americans talking about how they face tyranny, how when they go to church, they were being followed by ICE agents. When they’d go to give a meal to an immigrant, they were being followed by agents. And I I just had so much hope for our country seeing them there. And I want to thank Minnesota as a Californian, as someone who grew up in Pennsylvania, as an American, for their character, for their courage, for what they have modeled in a multi-racial democracy. And my question for you, I mean, having served as a congressman, a governor, what is it about Minnesota that we can learn? What is it that leads to this kind of inclusive feeling about immigrants in our nation? » Well, thank you, Congressman, and thanks for your work on many fronts. Um, look, I think Reverend Tolgard summed it up in in getting at the heart of this, it’s about the neighborliness and the care. And um, left to our own devices, I’m going to make the case Minnesota and by the way, I would remind folks, states have to balance their budgets. We’re AAA bond rated, one of the states that’s ranked the highest. We have a surplus and we also have the highest rainy day funds, one of the strongest protections. So, we understand fiscal responsibility, but we also understand this caring, this neighborliness. People saw their neighbor. I believe our politics can change with that idea of what the next door neighbor looks like. Now, I will have to tell you, Mr. I was deeply concerned last year when the vice president of the United States mentioned he can understand why people wouldn’t want to live by somebody who’s not like them, which seems to go against our entire ethos in Minnesota, whether it was the first wage of Norwegian and Swedish immigrants that came to Minnesota, German immigrants like my family, or whether it was Mong coming after the Vietnam War, or Somali and other East African uh immigrants to our country. And I think it’s this sense of working together. There’s a reason that we rank at the top in health care. We rank at the top in personal incomes. We rank near the top in home ownership. We rank near the top in happiness because this idea that we’re all in it together and that we believe everybody should have a chance. So I think it’s an ethos and it gets into our politics on the secular side. I believe as an elected official that I shouldn’t give a sermon, but I should attempt to live one. And one of our politicians, Paul Wellstone, talked about we all do better and we all do better. And that’s what we do. And and I know that is true to a certain degree in other states. But I see folks making the claim that well, you wouldn’t have any fraud if you just cut all these programs, if you just zeroed them out. That is true. If we did not provide food for our children, no one would steal from that program. But there would also be a lot of hungry children. and what I’m asking for and acknowledging the accountability we need to put program integrity in. So I think it’s a neighborliness. I think it’s a historical point about caring for your own and I think it’s a clear understanding that is your neighbor does better you’re going to do better. » Well thank you governor and obviously fraud matters and budgets matter but what really matters right now in this country are values and I really appreciate you’re sharing that. Uh, Attorney General Ellison, in the brief time I have, you know, I just want to be clear about Somali Americans because when I was growing up as an Indian-American, anytime someone who was of Indian origin did something wrong, every Indian-American was concerned, you know, and I don’t think people understand that if you aren’t a minority, how that makes you feel. I understand there were 80 or 90 people who were Somali Americans who were involved in this but there are 100,000 Somali Americans at least in Minnesota and statistically from all the studies I’ve seen it is just factually untrue that Somali motans or Somali Americans commit more fraud than white Americans or Indian-Americans or other Americans and could you just speak to this because it is so dangerous and I don’t even think on the other side people are doing that on purpose but if you aren’t an immigrant. If you haven’t lived that or a ch child of immigrants, you don’t know what that makes you feel. And can you talk about the Somali uh experience in Minnesota? You know, the reality is the Somali community in Minnesota has brought great things to our state. They have opened businesses. They’ve gotten professional degrees. They are great neighbors who volunteer and help their neighbors. They have been a benefit to our state. If you pick out a few people who’ve done wrong, sure, you can do that. But I can guarantee you, you can do that in any ethnic group at all in the state of Minnesota or anywhere in America. » Thank you. Thank you both. » Before I recognize Mr. Higgins, I’ll recognize Mr. Walkenshaw for unanimous consent. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And first, I just wanted to make a a quick correction. You said Secretary Gnome is before the Homeland Security Committee today. That’s that’s not true. I’m a member of the committee. She was with us a couple months ago, but Okay. not scheduled. Uh, with that, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a September 22nd, 2025 article from Reuters titled, “Trump Aid Homeman accepted $50,000 in bribery sting operation which shows the Trump administration is willing to cover up blatant corruption of its official.” » Without objection to order, chair now recognizes Mr. Higgins from Louisiana. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, ma’am, thank you for being here today. Governor, when you when you took office, this this fraud had already begun. Is that is that an accurate assessment? » That’s accurate. Uh, Mr. Higgins. So, so what we’re trying to get our heads wrapped around here as a nation and and and we’re doing our best as a committee, I’m quite certain on both sides to just sort of focus our attention on what needs to be focused on. You had massive fraud in the state of Minnesota. And when we started looking into wage, fraud, abuse, and theft across the country, Minnesota surfaced as as a a wow moment for for the entire country. So naturally, you know, we look as a citizenry to, well, who’s in charge there? And and my old friend, Governor Waltz is in charge. And the truth is is fraud had begun before you before you took office. So it’s a reasonable question, Governor. What you you noted in many interviews. I’m not going to go through them ad nauseium. you were aware of this level of fraud and investigations and and yet it seems like nothing was done until the Trump administration uh re reestablished itself in a second term and we began broad investigations into wage fraud, abuse and theft and Minnesota popped. So would you would you please I just give you a minute to respond. » Yeah. » Why why didn’t you do something sooner? I know some people were put in jail. I know there were investigations, but there was billions and billions and billions of dollars being stolen in a from a pretty concentrated demographic in your community. And this demographic is a significant political supporter for you and your party, good sir. So I just ask you, please explain. » Yeah. » Well, thank you, Mr. Higgins, and I I appreciate your question in good faith on this. First of all, the issue of billions, and I’ll keep saying this, $1 is too many. That number got thrown around. There’s nothing behind it. But I will acknowledge $1 is too much. I will also note the character. » I would say it’s it’s slow. I would say it’s slow, but but continue. » Well, there’s nothing to support that. But look, we will pursue it and assume that that’s the case. We will still make the changes we need to make. The characterization that nothing happened till the Trump administration came in is is simply not true. We worked with them in the first administration where USDA didn’t take action and I think that documented. The fact is starting in 2019, I went to the legislature asking for » You didn’t pause payments, Governor. the pausing payments » and the criminal investigation which I’m running out of time I want to jump to the the way America sees this Governor Walls respectfully sir is that this money just continued to flow there was a high awareness of this waste fraud abuse and theft like organized crime level theft and and did it seemed to be slow rolled and nobody stopped the money from rolling in and the money’s gone it’s been remitted overseas Um, Attorney General Ellison, you stated in your opening statement that uh you you you sort of stated that your office only has direct jurisdiction over Medicaid fraud. Did you say that in your opening statement? Okay. Well, you seem to indicate that that you don’t have like criminal authority, but you do, don’t you? under your own law, you have an authority. If the county district attorney asks you to get involved or if the governor asks you to get involved, then your office can take lead on any criminal investigation. Specifically, if you have particular uh staffing and capabilities within your office because it’s statewide to look into organized crime. Is that not correct? » Okay. So you have the authority to lead your state’s effort to respond to this massive fraud at the state level from within the healthc care realm where government money is being stolen at very very high levels unprecedented levels in your state. Are you leading that effort for the state of Minnesota? » You’re addressing it. Are you leading it? Are you leading the effort? » We are leading the effort to prosecute Medicaid fraud in Minnesota. » I’m not talking about Medicaid fraud. Don’t hide behind that. You have the authority to prosecute anything criminally that the governor asked you to. And this thing is big. I’m giving you an opportunity, sir. Are you leading the criminal investigative effort into this massive fraud across the board in the health care spectrum in the state of Minnesota or not? » We are following the law and » you are not leading. You’re not leading. I must say, Mr. Chairman, that the attorney general of state of Minnesota should resign. I yield. » Thank you. Gentleman yields back. Uh before I recognize Mr. Frost, I want to Mr. Walkaw, you were right. She’s not testifying in Homeland Security. Christy Nolam’s testifying in judiciary. I knew she was here somewhere today. So that was You were right. I misstated the wrong committee. Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost from Florida. » Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. And I have unanimous consent um called fraud focus. Why is Trump granting clemency to convicted fraudsters? » Without objection. So ordered. » Thank you all for being here. The whole world has witnessed unprecedented and extreme immigration enforcement tactics this year in Minnesota. After the murder of Renee Nicole Good and before the murder of Alex Prey, President Donald Trump posted on Truth Social that quote, “The day of reckoning and retribution is coming.” Governor Walls, the dictionary defines retribution as punishment inflicted on someone as ven vengeance for a wrong or criminal act. Based on what we’ve seen play out in Minneapolis, what is the problem with the president of the United States directing agents to carry out retribution? » Well, yeah, thank you. And this is certainly troubling um because under the guise of fraud, which we all want to tackle, uh we were subject to, as you saw, the largest invasion of a state um by the federal government um I don’t know, in in uh certainly any of our lifetimes. And that infliction to me, we’re trying to figure it out. Look, » we’ll acknowledge and we’re fixing it in Minnesota. But I’m telling you, each of you are going to go back to your state and if some of you think you want to be governor, you’re going to deal with this. And these folks keep moving. The problem is, Congressman, this was about retribution. This was about singling out Minnesota. And I think I’m going to just name it. I think it’s singling out because our state works and it provides things for people and we care and we mind our own business and we respect our neighbors. And this retribution had nothing to do with getting the worst of the worst. We know that it had nothing to do with stopping fraud. And we were subject, we being motans for over 10 weeks. And I want to note just before and I’ll give I’ll yield back on this. Congressman, I think this is important to note. The gentleman from Illinois noted that uh midway blitz the damage it did to Chicago. There were 500 agents on the ground in Chicago. Christine testified yesterday there’s still 650 in Minnesota. It is not over. This is not ancient news. This is not looking like everybody moved on. Motans are still experiencing this. » It’s bad for our communities and makes our people less safe. It’s terrorizing our streets. » Um, Reverend, what has been happening in your community when individuals try to record federal agents? » Thank you for your question. Uh, individuals who have tried to record federal agents have been told they cannot. They have uh been asked for uh taken pictures of their license plates. They have been followed. They have um been subject to in fear intimidation tactics by ICE agents. » And one of the only reasons that really the world knows about what’s going on in uh Minnesota is because of our constitution and the right to be able to record law enforcement and federal agents. Those videos and the videotapes have been in part the reason why we know what’s going on. Trump administration officials have suggested that observing or identifying federal agents is quote doxing or quote assault. We know federal agents have followed observers to their homes. We know protesters have been pepper-sprayed. We know people have been violently detained who were filming them without bystanders having cameras who know how the murders of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Prey by ICE agents would have been uh handled by this administration. They have already tried to lie about these murders even with footage after Alex Prey was murdered. Steven Miller said he was quote a domestic terrorist who tried to quote assassinate federal law enforcement. Christine Gnome said that he committed an act of domestic terrorism. And the president of the United States said that he was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist. Reverend, the the last thing I I want to get to that I think is really important. I grew up in the church and I used to wear one of the what would Jesus do? Uh um bracelets mainly because I used to curse a little too much when I was little and then I would like snap myself when I cursed. Either way, nowadays I think less about what would Jesus do and I think more about what would happen to Jesus um in this country. And I just wanted to give you a moment to talk about what you think would happen to refugees Mary and Joseph as they come to our border. » Would they be separated from their child? I mean, what what does this look like? » Such a good point, Congressman. And yes, Jesus was himself a refugee, as were his parents. And yes, I fear that they too would have ex experienced the harm and cruel treatment that motans have been experiencing at the hands of our government. » What What do you say to the people who hide behind the Bible and wrap themselves in the flag to say that what is going on in our country right now with ICE terrorizing our communities, ripping our neighbors, ripping families apart, what would you say to people like that? I think again uh Matthew 25 where are we in this moment? It should be on the side of the least, the widow, the orphan, the the hungry, the homeless, and that uh as people of faith and moral conscience. Uh history will tell what side we stood on, but our actions today will show true love of neighbor. » Thank you. I yield back. Yields back. Before I recognize Miss Mace, Mr. Gman, I believe, has a UC. » Yeah. I’d like to submit for the record uh something » put hit the button. » I’d like to submit for the record something called Minnesota Financial and Compliance Report on federally assisted programs for the year ending June 30th, 2024. » Without objection to order, chair now recognizes Miss Mace from South Carolina. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, gentlemen. Uh thank you for being here today. Governor Walls and Attorney General Ellison, you have presided over one of the worst government fraud scandals in American history. This was money intended to feed hungry children, help kids with autism, provide food and shelter and healthcare to the needy, and more. You both allowed billions in these American taxpayer dollars to be pillaged and plundered by Somali pirates. You knew this was happening. You chose to do nothing about it. And in some cases, you even enabled it. Attorney General Ellison, you even profited from this fraud by taking campaign donations from these Somalians after pledging to help quash the investigation into them. I find your behavior despicable. My questions this morning, uh, my first go to Governor Walls, uh, and I hope you learned some lessons from your last hearing with me on the oversight committee. Have you learned anything? » I did that if I didn’t speak up, two of my people would be dead, Congresswoman, and I warned you. Okay, Miss uh Governor Walls, uh what is a woman? Have you learned that lesson? Do you know what a woman is? » I’m the governor of Minnesota. Congressman, I’m not here to be your prop for your obsession. I taught middle school what a woman is. You certainly can’t define what fraud is. If you can’t even define what a woman is, you can’t define fraud. How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2017? Governor, » I don’t have those numbers in front of me. Congressoman, » did you prepare for this hearing today? Did you do any I take Congress seriously » and you’ve seen the numbers about autism fraud in Minnesota. So, we’re going to do some Minnesota math with you today. Okay. Are you ready? » How much money was spent on 20 2017 for autism in Minnesota? How much? » I don’t know. I wasn’t the governor. » Okay. Did you not just say that you prepared for this hearing today? $1 million. Okay. A quick Google search or using your AI could tell you $1 million was spent. How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2024? » I don’t have the number in front of me as governor. » Governor in 2024. » I was, but I’m not the » Okay. So, your excuse before that you didn’t know what 2017 autism numbers were because you were not governor and today you can’t answer the numbers about 2024 as governor. Um, and you still said you prepared for this hearing today. It’s unbelievable. Uh, $343 million was spent in 2024. What percent increase is that from 1 million to 343 million? What percentage increase is that? » I’m not here to be your prop. Go ahead and tell me. » Well, are you governor of Minnesota or not? » Yes, I am. I’m not governor of South Carolina. You can sure as hell bet that I’m going to know the math. The math is 34,200% increase. An increase of 343 times what it was in this time period. Do you know the number of children in Minnesota? I know that Minnesota ranked as a top three state for children in the last total population in Minnesota. » 5.7 million. » Okay. Um, what is the total population of children in Minnesota? » I don’t have the number in front of me right now. » Are you governor of Minnesota? » I know 400,000 were cut out of healthcare last week by the you made. » Are you governor of Minnesota? » I am. And you don’t know the number of children residing? » I don’t have the specific number. It’s 5.7 million. » That’s your total. » What is your age? What is the age? 0 to 5, 0 to 19. » We have approximately 1.2 million children in Minnesota. I’m not even governor of South Carolina. Our population in South Carolina is 5.5 million. We have approximately 1.1 million children under the age of 18 in my home state of South Carolina. Okay. As governor, I expect you to know this information. Thank God you’re not vice president of the United States. Do you know approximately how many children in Minnesota are autistic or on the spectrum? » No, I don’t I don’t have that number. » Okay. Well, if you take the CDC’s roughly one in 36 kids are on the spectrum, we’re talking about approximately 33,000 kids. In South Carolina, it’s about 31,000 or so. What is uh do you know what this is per child spending wise in the fraud for autis autistic kids in Minnesota? Again, I’m not here to be your prop. Go ahead and tell us. » This isn’t Is doing Minnesota math a prop? This is math. We’re talking about fraud. » Minnesota ranks at the top. Where does South Carolina rank? » We’re talking about money. » Where does South Carolina children rank on healthiness? » These are my questions for you. It doesn’t go the other way around unless we’re debating on the debate stage and we’re not. » If you’re asking questions about being governor, it does govern Minnesota, which you can’t answer. This is basic math » and you can’t even answer care about kids in Minnesota. » They rank near the top in every category. My children are fed. My children are autistic children getting the services they need in Minnesota. » My children have the best schools. » No, you don’t. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. » Mr. Chairman, » lady yields back. » Mr. Chairman, » who’s Oh, Miss Mobert. Yes, » Mr. Chairman. » Oh, Mr. Mace. » Uh, may I may I make my two motions? » Proceed. » Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the honorable Pamela Joe Bondi to appear before the committee for a deposition regarding the department’s handling of the investigation to Jeffrey Epstein and his associates and compliance with the Epstein Finals Transparency Act. » A motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in advance until the end of today’s hearing. The committee will now proceed with today’s hearing. » Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the Office of Congressional Workplace Rights for the awards and settlements paid pursuant to section 415 of the Congressional Accountability Act prior to December 12th, 2018 with only redactions allowable for the personally identify information of victims, alleged victims, and witnesses. » Thank you, ma’am. » A motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion obeyance until the end of today’s hearing. » Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent. » Oh, Mr. Mr. Chairman, can I one thing before » chair recognize the ranking member? » Thank you. I know we just like to see Mrs. Mace’s uh motions in writing, which would be great. » Okay. Now, before I recognize Miss Lee, do you have Miss Randall? » Thank you, Mr. Chair. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a December 11th, 2025 article from the Guardian titled Somali are the scapegoat. Fear rises as Trump targets Minneapolis Community, which describes xenophobic attacks. That objection’s ordered. Chair recognizes Miss Lee from Pennsylvania. » Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the past uh few months, Democrats on this committee and in the Senate have been holding hearings on the unconstitutional actions of the Trump administration. So, we’ve heard uh from in that time whistleblowers, industry experts uh and survivors of abuses of federal agents. They spoke about warrantless searches that they have been subjected to um including federal agents bursting into their homes with guns. Uh they spoke about being shot at and dragged out of their cars um and then you know being made to look like they were actually the perpetrators. They spoke about federal agents use of masks and unmarked vehicles um and the efforts of these agents to hide their identity to escape any sort of accountability. And we heard from the brother of Renee Good who was murdered by ICE agents in Min in Min Minneapolis. That is what oversight looks like. Not two hearings on fraud in one single state, which is not even the worst instance of fraud out there. Though we all here agree that we should target fraud. Republicans have dragged Governor Walls in again to demonize and target his state because he is a Democratic governor and he is implementing Democratic policies. Republicans took a legitimate investigation and as per usual has made it a circus. Now we have just a random guy lurking around child care centers trying to get into buildings with children as the fraud vigilante. The Somali community has been vilified and made to feel unsafe and federal benefits are being cut to Minnesota and other Democratled states. Trump and his administration also use this investigation as a justification for an immigration enforcement push that has created chaos and fueled violence and resulted in the death of American citizens. Reverend Tolgart, as a motan, do you feel that these oversight hearings and the Trump administration’s fixation on fraud in Minnesota has made anyone safer in your state? » No, they have not. » Republicans have been touting uh alleged fraud and childcare centers and the need to protect children, but since the immigration uh enforcement push, have kids been able to be kids? Have they felt comfortable going uh to school or playing out in public with each other or with their friends? » They have not been safe. They’ve not been able to go to school, to be in playgrounds, to be in libraries and places you would normally expect to find them. » Are you worried about the long-term impact of being surrounded by violence and uncertainty what it could have on these children? » I’m deeply concerned about that and I know that their teachers and their parents are as well. » You were arrested earlier this year while protesting ICE agents and deportations. Why was it important for you to and other clergy members to speak out against Trump’s administration’s actions in Minnesota and elsewhere? » Thank you for your question. I uh was arrested along with 99 other faith leaders in Minnesota, many of whom could be here today. And we were compelled to action to stand on the side of the the most vulnerable in our communities and those who have been uh facing enormous cruelty and uh unfair pro unfair uh actions on the hands of ICE. And we needed to stand alongside them as have many others uh in our faith traditions in in history. we stand along with those that great cloud of witnesses. » I want to thank you for for coming in today and for of course having the courage to stand up uh to the attacks against your community. This, as we can all see, was never truly about fraud. It is a part of a greater effort by Trump and Republicans to gut social services, roll back civil rights, to villainize and make others out of people who they don’t want to have and enjoy the same civil liberties and rights as others in this nation. They want to strip away and have been stripping away healthcare and education, uh, child care funding that millions of people rely on. This this investigation and these actions have only been used to harm, not to help people. And rest assured, this will not stop in Minnesota, just as it didn’t stop in Chicago before that or LA before that. This is a blatant attempt uh blatant authoritarian grab that the Trump administration has been persistent in. It will come to all shores if we do not all take a collective stance. But more than that, uh urging my colleagues in the Republican uh caucus or conference to take up their job and their task as a co-equal branch of government. We do not serve as the lap dogs, as the cold followers of Donald Trump, of a president. When there are abuses or overreach, it is supposed to be us that takes a stand. And I would hope that at some point in the 119th Congress, some Republican with a gavl will do so. I thank you all for your time and I yel back. Gentle lady yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. Donald’s from Florida. » Uh, thank you, Chairman. Governor Walls, when did you first receive notice of potential fraud in Minnesota’s social services programs? » Social service programs in general. We knew that there was issues with the CCAP program as early as 2012. And my first days in office, we started taking action. » But as governor, when were you first notified? before I took office. » All right, Governor Walls, former Department of Human uh Services Commissioner Tony Lori testified that you were aware in early 2019 of fraud in two Department of Human Services administrative administered programs. Is this statement accurate? » Not that I recall. I’m not sure what he’s speaking about. » You don’t remember this meeting or this notification? » No, not specifically. I don’t. In March of 2019, your office of legal affairs reported five to six million in alleged child care assistance program fraud. In April 2019, it was also reported that the Department of Human Services lacked proper integrity controls to control fraud. Were you aware of these reports? » Not specific reports, but because of that, my office, we put forward uh actions to address them starting in 2019. Is it correct that your administration was aware of the feeding our future fraud as early as of May of 2020 based upon regular discussions about program irregularities? » I believe that’s correct with the agency the the department of education and then going back to USDA. » I’m going to go back. Was your office notified of these of these fraud allegations? » Not me specifically that they’re handled internally in the It happens every day. » Who was notified, Governor Walls? the the agencies do their work, the commissioners, and then if someone in my office was notified, they let me know. As governor, I make, you know, 50 decisions a day. I said, I did this job for 12 years. I make more decisions in a day. » Governor Walls, » so someone was maybe notified, but the agencies are the ones that make the » ask the next question. We have it under sworn uh testimony in the oversight committee that your former chief of staff was notified directly by these various commissioners about the fraud in Minnesota. » That could be correct. » So, are you saying that your chief of staff didn’t notify you? » I’m saying I don’t recall whether he did at that time or not, but we took action. So, I’m assuming when we put our budgets together based on that, we put a package together for that legislative study. » Let’s talk about budgets. Governor Walls, feeding our future went from $37,000 in 2018 to $199 million in 2021. Are you aware of this increase in budgetary costs from feeding our future? » Not specifically, but I know it increased during the pandemic. » The housing stabilization services went from $27 million in 2021 to $105 million in 2024. Are you aware of this increase, Governor Walls? » Not specifically, but I know it increased. » Autism Centers went from 24 million in 2019 to 342 million in 2024. Are you aware of that? » Not specifically again, but yes, we know the budgets increased. » Integrated community supports went from 4.6 6 million in 2021 to 170 million in 2024. Are you aware of that? » Again, not specifically on the numbers, but it’s the budget. » Governor Walls, you have to submit a budget to your legislature every single every single year like every governor has to do. If you’re not aware of these increases, what was your office? » Everyone is balanced. My budget is about 72 billion. It infects 23 agencies. » Florida’s budget’s 115 billion, sir. But what were you doing if you’re seeing program increases like this amid allegations of fraud in your state? action was being taken on these starting back in 2019 if it’s secret. » Can you describe the action that was taken in 2019? » Sure. In the 2019, I’ll go to the the first things that we did on childcare assistance. We uh we lowered the standards on proof of administrative fraud disqualification. » You lowered the standards. » We lowered the standards for proof of administrative fraud. The standards where we had to prove it were so high it was impossible to try and do it. So, we lowered what it took to show that fraud was happening. And what did you do with the results of lowering the standards to prove fraud to prove fraud? What did you do? » Put 79 people in prison and » but Governor Walls the fraud continued to increase. It increased under your tenure. Do you acknowledge that? » Did the numbers increase? Yes. And I tell you when you when you catch people and prosecute them, it shows up at the fraud increase. I would tell you congressman just because you’re increases fraud doesn’t » I got I got 50 seconds governor and I don’t want to get into a fight with you but let me move quickly to the lieutenant governor uh Peggy Flanigan’s your lieutenant governor. Is that correct? » That is correct. » Is the Does the lieutenant governor go on the ticket with you or are they um elected by themselves on a ballot in the state of Minnesota? » It’s on a ticket. » It’s on a ticket. Peggy Flanigan essentially works for you. » She has an independent office. She’s a constitutional officer. She’s on the ticket, but she is independent as a constitutional officer. You could ask for her resignation at any time. Is that correct? That’s typically how it works with lieutenant governors. » Yeah, but she’s a constitutional officer. I don’t believe that’s happened in Minnesota. » Peggy Flanigan is um there are accusations that she was intimidating whistleblowers. There was a meeting on April of April 12th of 2024 where she went on stage and publicly denounced whistleblowers in the state of Minnesota, calling them losers in their mother’s basement. Is this the type of treatment that your administration allows for whistleblowers in Minnesota? » I’m not familiar with that. » Are you aware of any intimidation of whistleblowers in the state of Minnesota? There are 30 whistleblowers who have given letters to this committee on the record saying that they have witnessed they have been uh subject to intimidation by your administration because they were trying to stop the fraud in Minnesota. » I encouraged them to go to the OA and the independent sources in Minnesota that are » the OA. You’re the governor. » No, the OA is the independent source. » Yes, sir. You’re the governor. Why don’t you take responsibility for what’s going on in your state? » We do take responsibility. None of those people I I’m telling you I have no » but you lost billions of dollars of of American taxpayer money in a process. Governor Walls, » we we’ve prosecuted these people. Congressman, I think Florida has fraud. » I would argue that the prosecutions have largely come from the federal offices as opposed to the state offices. » You know that we refer. » What do you mean that’s not how it works? It’s a partner how it works. » They’re partners. They partner together. a BCA. » Is the attorney general allowed to investigate fraud and prosecute fraud in the state of Minnesota without the Department of Justice federally? Are you allowed to do that, Attorney General Ellison? » Yes. And we do prosecute Medicaid. Yes. So, we do prosecute Medicaid fraud all the time. We’ve prosecuted over 300 people. » Apparently, apparently not enough cuz Minnesota’s rifle with it. I yield back. » Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Miss Randall from Washington State. » Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Governor Wals. Attorney General Ellison and Reverend Tolgard for being here to shed light on the impacts of the Trump administration’s harmful actions in Minnesota and frankly to um be pulled into some really ridiculous question lines. the escalation in attacks from this administration on social services programs in democratically led states like Minnesota on the heels of the big ugly laws billions of dollars of Medicaid cuts last summer is clearly devastating our communities. Do I believe Congress has a responsibility to reduce opportunities for misuse and fraud where we have seen evidence that it exists? Sure. That’s why I introduced the Federal Program Integrity and Fraud Prevention Act, a bipartisan bill that would prevent individuals who have been convicted of fraud from applying for federal contracts. Mr. Chairman, if you are serious about addressing fraud, I’d love to see this committee hold a hearing on my bill, which was developed based on feedback from nonpartisan inspectors general whose entire job is overseeing the improp the appropriate administration of government programs. And let me remind my friends on the other side about Mississippi, a state with Republican leadership where over $77 million in temporary assistance for needy families funds were misused. One of the perpetrators of that fraud, former NFL quarterback Brett Favre, who received $1.1 million from the government for speeches he never made. Congressional Republicans response was to invite Farre to come testify before the Ways and Means Committee about how we should strengthen oversight of federal welfare programs because I’m sure he had some good advice about that. Meanwhile, my Republican colleagues are villainizing entire minority populations because of the actions of a few. We have a word for that. I also have a lot of Republican colleagues here who talk about being fiscally responsible and reigning in federal spending. Again, I also believe we should be fiscally responsible. But to me, fiscal responsibly responsible governing means that we invest in transformative universal health care that saves us money in the long term. child care policies that give the budget back seven dollars on the dollar spent in long-term costs for the children who benefit. Policies that will actually save our country money in the long run and contribute to strong society and strong economy. Not slashing social services, not defunding hospitals, not eliminating childare programs. Governor Walls, why do you think the Trump administration is so obsessed with fraud in Minnesota when its own agencies have found other states with even worse problems? » Well, it’s a question we’re all asking, Congresswoman, and and I’d like to say and thank you for this. I I just want to make sure I go on record, Chairman Comr, and condemning uh the slurs towards my Somali community that the gentleoman from South Carolina made. Thank you. Uh look, Congress, I I don’t know. I I think it’s been pretty clear the president does not like me personally. Um I think he continues to tell lies about our electoral system claiming that he’s won all three times when he lost all three times. Um I think he has people around him who were trying to find quotas around immigration and they saw a perfect storm, if you will, that included some Somali folks and a whole lot, you know, if we’re if we’re going to condemn folks, there’s no Somali folks in the Epstein files, things like that. We know. But I I don’t know. It’s an obsession and I I come back to it again. I think it’s because we are so ideologically opposed to making children go hungry, people go unhoused. We invest in education, we invest in research and uh we believe everybody has a place and so I think it’s just personal about how we do business. » Thank you so much. I could not agree more. Um, there are also reports that as many as 50 prosecutors in the US attorney’s office for Minnesota have quit in the last 12 months. They used to have 70 prosecutors. Now some reports say they have as few as 17. Many of those who left include the very same prosecutors who were prosecuting the feeding our futures fraudsters. How has this flight impacted your efforts to fight fraud in Minnesota? Well, it’s made it very difficult. And I think for all of my friends on the Republican side, we welcomed the Republican folks, the attorneys over at the US Attorney’s Office who were good at helping us as partners. We turned this over to them. They prosecuted, they put people in jail. They’re not there now. There’s nobody doing this. And I will remind this committee, the US attorney was in front of a federal judge yesterday being threatened with jail because of what’s going on in that office. And from my perspective, who’s prosecuting trafficking, drugs, murder, and fraud? And so we want if if you could do anything, chairman, call the president and tell him to put some US attorneys over there to prosecute fraud. I’ll I’ll sign on with you. » Thank you, Governor, and thank you, Mr. Chair. » Chair now recognizes Chairman Burchett from Tennessee. » Say that with disrespect in your voice, Mr. Chairman. Um, Governor, you mentioned that that President Trump lost all three times. I believe that was that’s an error and that’s a conspiracy theorist and I’m uh I believe you spoken error there, but » no, he lost Minnesota all three times. » Okay. Okay. I’m glad you corrected that cuz » he doesn’t agree with We’re good. We’re good. Have you ever used taxpayer funds directly or indirectly to take action against individuals suspected of disclosing potential wrongdoing within a government entity? I have not. » Well, almost 30 whistleblowers accuse you and your administration of retaliation. Would you say that’s a conspiracy then? » I can’t speak to what they said. I can tell you it didn’t happen. » Okay. Are you aware of reports alleging state officials have engaged in retaliation against whistleblowers? » Uh, no, I’m not. Not specifically. No. » You’re not aware of that? When 30 have come forward? » I am not. I believe these are these are internet. We have options. the OA. We have independent folks that they can come to and I encourage them. It’s against the law in Minnesota. I have executive orders. » It’s against the law here, but it doesn’t stop it. What actions have you taken to protect whistleblowers in your state, sir? And has anyone face consequences for retaliation? If so, who? » Well, in Minnesota, we have nonpartisan office legislative auditor. We have zero tolerance. The Minnesota Whistleblower Protection Act prohibits retaliation. I signed executive order in 2025 added protections. The law explains and clarifies protections around what reports are protected and who can report issues. Um they’re strong. When I was here, I was an advocate for the IG’s and I think that’s well known in my 12 years here that I that we need them. » Okay. Well, a whistleblower blower told our office um that her supervisor at the Minnesota Department of Health and Human Services threatened to make her job difficult. and the supervisor that did that later received a a promotion. Um, would that surprise you? And can you confirm if this account is accurate? » No, I I can’t confirm it and I don’t make HR decisions, but what I’m being very clear about this, there’s a zero tolerance for whistleblower retaliation in Minnesota. » Can you um How can any agency combat fraud when retaliation goes unchecked? » It makes it more difficult. That’s why we don’t allow it. Do you think that um any the fraudsters sent stolen funds to Somali terrorist groups? » Pardon me. » Do you think that any of the um the Somali folks that received funds sent any of that money to um any of the stolen funds to Somali terrorist groups? » I there’s been reports done and investigations done on this and I don’t believe there’s any proof to support that. » Okay. Mr. Attorney General, um do you recall a December 21 2021 meeting with individuals connected to feeding our future during which you stated there will be cases that you know I want you to feel free to call me directly and then I call up and like what’s the problem and let me tell you just letting the inquiry from AG is sometimes enough to make people knock it off. » Congressman, yeah, I was at a meeting like that. Let me just say that I’ve reported on this numerous times. I’ve been in front of a committee in the Senate. I’ve been I’m here today. I was in front of a state uh House committee. I was I this is a widely discussed matter and I’ve been fully transparent. But let me just be clear. Uh these people were fraudsters as everyone here agrees. They were liars. They lied to me. They lied to courts. They lied to everyone. And I would like you to know that I do meet with community meetings all the time. I mean, it’s a regular part of my job. Nothing unusual about me meeting with people. Nothing unusual about me telling people if you got a problem, you know, my office will try to help you. But these people were liars and fraudsters. The main thing is I’d like you to know is that we’re down so many federal prosecutors that it has put our ability to put hold these people accountable definitely uh at a low. » Yes, sir. Eight hour days do get long. In in September of 2022, you issued a press release titled, “For two years, Attorney General Ellison’s office has held Feeding Our Future accountable.” Does that sound familiar? » Thank you for the question, Congressman. Let me tell you, the Department of Education does » sound familiar or not, sir. » The It certainly does. And the Department of Education, » how much did you receive in campaign contributions from individuals charged in the feeding our future case? Every campaign donation I got was returned to all authorities. » Okay. » Everybody knows about the 250 million in fraud for feeding our future case which was prosecuted by the US attorney’s office in Minnesota. But there were just two other large site sponsors that you settled with instead of prosecuting them. Why did you not prosecute partners in quality care or the Garagar family services? » Because my office doesn’t have jurisdiction to prosecute in those cases. Well, you allowed them to dissolve, but no one was prosecuted. And um PIQC is still sir, PIQC is accused of 300 million in fraud as significant assets, yet no charges and no attempts to recover taxpayer money. I’ll remind y’all, $19 billion. I was a state legislator and I can remember when our state budget was $19 billion. This is money that’s been stolen and it will not be recovered and you all are to blame. And every dad one of you all ought to sit step down. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. » Gentleman yields back. Before I recognize Mr. Bale, Mr. Donald, do you have a UC? » Yeah. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an oped from the Minnesota Star Tribune, authored by Jim Nobles, the former Minnesota legislative auditor, dated December 29th, 2025. » Without objection, so ordered. Chair recognizes Mr. Bell from St. Louis. » Thank you, chair, ranking member, and our witnesses for being here today. My Republican colleagues have called this hearing today once again to divert the public’s attention from the dangerous threats that they themselves have have created for the American people. They have chosen to turn a blind eye to the escalating public safety crisis in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Fueled by the deployment of ICE agents under the direction of President Trump. On December 1st, 2025, this administration launched Operation Metro Serve Surge under the false pretense of promoting public safety in Minneapolis. Since then, we have witnessed several deaths, including the brut brutal killings of Renee Good on January 7th, 2026, and Alex Prey only a few short weeks later on January 24th. News reports state that in 2026 alone, there have already been eight additional deaths at the hands of federal agents. We are now living in one of the deadliest periods on record with more deaths carried out by ICE agents in recent years than at any time since 2004. Under this administration’s direction, masked agents have inflicted trauma that will remain in these communities and neighborhoods. There’s a lack of accountability and justice. Survivors stories have been suppressed. False narratives have been told and federal officials have refused to cooperate, even going so far as to block state investigators from acce accessing evidence. AG Ellison, as the chief legal officer for the state of M Minnesota, what level of cooperation would you expect from the federal government during an an investigation of this magnitude? » Congressman, I would expect the kind of cooperation that we’re used to experiencing. I mean, in in all of the time uh that I’ve even been a lawyer, which is now 36 years, state federal cooperation was exactly how we did business all the time. We are very proud and we love working with our FBI agents, DEA agents, ATF agents. It’s a regular thing. This is what’s strange and unusual. » And has the lack of cooperation and unclear communication from the federal agencies undermined the investigations into the death of Renee Good and Alex Prey? » It certainly has. We have been denied access to critical evidence uh in this case that we would need to evaluate this matter. uh based on use of force analysis, » which is befuddling to me because as a former prosecutor, I’ve led serious and thorough investigations in pursuit of justice. I can say that what we have seen by DHS, DOJ, and the FBI is the complete opposite of a detailed and thorough investigation into the wrongdoing of ICE officials. And let us be clear, despite what President Trump would have the public believe, those agents remain on the streets of Minnesota. These actions are not isolated incidents. We’ve seen similar events taking place across the nation in Illinois, North Carolina, and California to name a few. We have heard directly from survivors about the cruelty and mistreatment they endured by ICE agents. And we have seen the individuals appointed under President Trump to head these operations evade justice and not be held accountable for their actions. We can’t stand by and allow this to continue. Those responsible for these actions must be held accountable and survivors and their families deserve answers and justice. Which is why, Mr. Chair, I move that pursuant to clause 2 subsection K6 of House Rule 11, the committee shall subpoena Greg Bavino to testify before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. » A motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in advance until the end of today’s hearing. The committee will now proceed with today’s hearing. » I yield the remainder of my time to the ranking member. I’d like uh just to provide just a few of that time to the our the reverend who I know wanted to make uh some additional comments about something that was said earlier uh in the hearing. » Got you have 30 seconds. » Thank you. Just following up on Matthew 25. I am so proud of the countless ways that motans, Christians and people of other faith and moral conscience have stepped forward to show love of neighbor and to come alongside those who are suffering most in this time. There is no greater example of living out the teachings of Christ and caring for the least among us than what we’ve seen in Minnesota these past few months. » Amen. Thank you. I yield back. » Gentleman yields back. Before I recognize Mr. Perry, I have a unanimous consent to uh enter into the record an article from Alpha News where US Attorney Rosen stated, and I quote, “We have more than adequate staffing to carry out the fraud. We have been reinforced in dramatic numbers by the Department of Justice and by other departments of the federal government.” Uh he also said, “Fraud investigations are increasing in pace. Fraud prosecutions, you will see, are going to be dramatically increasing in pace. According to Rosen, if you’re committing fraud in the state of Minnesota, it’s really not a good time to be doing so. Uh, just wanted to enter that article into the record without objection. So ordered. Chair now recognizes Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you again. You’re an Army guy. I’m an army guy. What’s as governor, one of your primary responsibilities? Keep your citizens safe, right? I think we could probably agree on that. We might not agree on much, but we could probably agree on that. And I heard you talk earlier about working with federal partners. Now, there’s a lot of been lot been discussed here about fraud of various kinds, but I want to talk about something that seems to me quite honestly a dereliction of duty or certainly a huge lapse in judgment. And you were governor in October of 2023, right? I just want to make sure we’re on the same page here. And you signed the Minnesota Drivers Licenses for All Act. Is that correct? » That’s correct. » That’s correct. Right. So, now look, I’m not going to hold you to knowing every single thing in these laws. There’s a lot of paragraphs and wording and so on and so forth, but under your law that you signed, it prohibits the disclosure of information contained in the license or identification card applications for enforcing title 8 of the United States code. Just to make sure, are you familiar with tit what title eight deals with? » I’m not specifically. » Okay. So, it deals with immigration, nationality, and aliens, particularly the law that you signed eliminates the requirement for social security numbers or proof of lawful presence. And furthermore, it’s a violation under section 144 of your code for anybody to research that. As a matter of fact, immigration status is is classified as private under section 13.18. So literally the federal government, your partner, as you said, we work with our federal partners can’t use that driver’s license information regarding people that are here illegally. Now, » I don’t understand the connection between the driver’s license and the immigration piece, I guess. » Well, they can’t because well, let me just let me make the connection for you. According to the Secretary of Transportation, one-third of Minnesota’s non-domiciled commercial drivers licenses were issued illegally. Were issued illegally. Do we Do you have a video ready to play for me? Can you play it now? This is what happens, Mr. Governor. This is what happens when you issue driver’s licenses to people illegally. He is on the northbound lanes of 61 going the wrong way. You can see I’m going southbound on 61. He’s in the northbound lanes on Highway 61. He’s crossing over there. And thank God I don’t know how much that thing weighs. 60 80,000 lb. 60 m an hour. » 18 wheeler. » You can you can cut the video. He was licensed in your state under a law that you signed that precludes federal officials, your federal partners, as you call them, from determining whether they’re here illegally. That guy that was driving that truck couldn’t pass the test. He didn’t pass the test out on the road. There’s another video. I’m not going to play it. But there’s another video of a guy here illegally turning a truck like that around in the middle of a highway where people lost their lives because they were decapitated when they went underneath it. That’s what happened. So my question for you is this should be easy. What are you going to do to rectify the law that you signed that allows people here illegally to get a CDL? That tape was in Missouri, not in your state. Look, if you don’t want to protect the people in your state, I guess that’s your business and the business of your voters. But that driver was driving in Missouri and and if he’d have hit a bunch of people, quite honestly, to me, you could have been held liable. » Yeah. Well, Congressman, first of all, Minnesota ranks in the top three safest states by highway data from your own department. » Highway data. » The data from the Department of Transportation for highway safety. We have the third. We want everybody on our roads to be licensed. So, are you saying are you saying based on that that you’re okay with » I’m not okay with that. I’m not okay with you or I speeding. I’m not okay with DUI. » You but you signed this law that allows for that. You signed it and you’re going to do nothing about it. » I can’t speak to specific on the CDL. What I can tell you is we » I can I just I referenced your law says House of Representatives, State of Minnesota. And I know » there’s a lot of words here. I just know our roads are safer. » Exactly. the the sections that allow for this to happen and preclude federal enforcement regarding immigration and the illegality of people receiving CDLs under your state’s » driver safety and immigration are two separate things. Anybody had that been a citizen or not, it’s still tragic. It’s wrong. We shouldn’t do it. What I’m telling you is in Minnesota, we have the third safest roads in the country. » So, you’re good. So, you’re good with this practice. » I’m not good with that. » What are you good with? Because that’s what’s happening under your law. Well, I I can’t speak to the specific on if it’s an outlier. We give license to people who then eventually people get after we issue that happened last month. This is March. That happened a week and a half ago. » Yeah. I don’t know. Familiar. » That’s wrong. And look, I » But you’re not going to do anything. » Sure. We’re going to do traffic laws against what are we going to do? » Was this person arrested? » I sure hope so. » Well, that’s good. » And what do you But he was licensed in your state under your law that you signed about a year and a half ago. Every day we give licenses and people speed. So we ticket them and try and stop that. What I’m telling you is I don’t understand the connection between » he’s here illegally. He can’t read and he got a license under your provisions and he’s driving all across the country and periling everybody else. That’s the connection. » I can’t speak the data shows Minnesota is one of the safest driving states in the country. I don’t know what to tell you. » Other states driving » I I don’t know. Thank Sherry now recognize Mr. Men from California. » I’m first sir. » Oh, you’re next. » Okay. » Is that okay sir? » I didn’t have it on the list but » Oh, I will yield to the rank ranking member. » You can go ahead. I don’t care. » You sure? Okay. » You can go ahead. I I’ll let it go. » I was tardy. I thank you, Mr. May. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, » good afternoon and thank you witnesses for coming today. So, what I’ve heard so far is feeding our future, $250 million stolen, 50 convictions secured, the prosecution was working. Then the administration froze 10 billion in child care across five states. No evidence, no legal authority, no statutory process. A federal court ruled it unlawful and unconstitutional within 48 hours. Thank you, Attorney General Ellison and Attorney General Bont for that work. Then the lead prosecutor resigned. His team followed. Those prosecutions are now at risk. So the record shows they froze 10 billion illegally, lost in court immediately, and dismantled the prosecution, actually putting Frosters in prison. Every single action made the fraud worse. This isn’t incompetence because incompetence is random. This was targeted, legally defective, and prosecutoily catastrophic. If this committee was serious about fraud, the first witness should have been the HS HS official who sent the letter, not the attorney general who beat them in court. Attorney General Ellison, what are we doing here? And I want actually to ask you, what is your office doing systemically to prosecute fraud in the state? » Well, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. Um, we, as I said, prosecuting Medicaid fraud is a very important work that we do. We do it every single day. We’ve secured millions of dollars for people. We’ve gotten millions in restitution. We’ve convicted people and held them accountable. We also represent state agencies and help those agencies uh support the work that they do. Uh the fact of the matter is is that you know we the the this work we do to stop fraud uh is helping to protect public money. We’re proud of it. Um and uh we also support federal prosecutions by providing them with information that they need to prosecute fraud which we have done and will of course continue to do. So sir, so tell me this. How has the ability to prosecute that fraud and social services programs been affected by this administration? » Well, it has been devastated by the actions of this administration. This administration has cut the number of prosecutors, but also has redirected FBI agents to do immigration as opposed to » Why have they cut those prosecutors? Those prosecutors actually, I said, cut, but they actually resigned as a matter of conscience because the administration was trying to force them to investigate the widow of Renee Good. » Say more. » So many of them said that they weren’t they couldn’t work under those circumstances because it violated their ethical uh their e personal ethical requirements. So they quit. So » So they left their jobs that they had sworn to do in mass because they were conflicted with conscience. » That’s right. And may I add, Congresswoman, that we have had motions for to dismiss for um the violation of a of a defendant’s right to a speedy trial granted by judges in Minnesota because there’s not enough federal prosecutors. And you know, one of those was a person who was a violent offender uh who was being prosecuted for felon in possession of a firearm. case was dismissed because there are not enough people to perform the functions of prosecuting people who commit crimes. So, this is having a devastating effect on our state. And in addition to all that, Congresswoman, » well, so let me get this straight. Help me understand. 50 convictions secured, additional prosecutions in limbo. The administration’s prosecutors have quit because the staging of how this all works. they believe and they have said on record is immoral. Why are we here? » I I’ve been wondering that um Madam » because aren’t you saying that you would love for the the prosecutions that are dangling in the wind? You would love for those folks to face justice. » Absolutely. Stealing public. » The ask would be then to the administration for what? with this committee here. I think your your colleague or the governor of your great state said you want more federal prosecutors on this case. » Yes. But it also we should go back to the hypocratic oath of do no harm. I mean it would it would be good to just stop doing things that shouldn’t be done. Uh such as demanding that prosecutors investigate Renee Good’s widow. » Right. That’s right. Well, I want to thank you all so much for coming today and um to the Reverend, I was able to come to your state briefly and like one of my colleagues said, I did go by the site of Miss Good’s death and it was heartening to see the solidarity in your community. There were about 150 Christians reciting the Lord’s Prayer over and over and over. You all are showing us what good really means. Thank you so much for being here today and I’ll yield back. » Gentle lady yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. Crane from Arizona. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you to our uh, guests for coming today. Um, I want to start with you, Attorney General Ellison. In an interview with CNN host Laura Coats, she asked you about whether or not you did enough to stop the fraud. Do you remember that interview? Attorney General, » uh, Congressman, I I got to admit that I don’t remember the details. » Can we play the video, please? So, m to refresh Mr. Ellison’s memory. » Are we ready to It may take us a second on that. I’m sorry. » Okay. I’ll I’ll just tell you what you said when she asked you if you’d done enough to stop the fraud and she mentioned the $9 billion. Um you said, “Of course we have done enough. We’re doing more every single day. This is a political matter. This is not a serious thing.” Do you remember saying that, Attorney General Ellison? » I remember the conversation. What I remember was that I was lamenting the political politicized nature of this very serious problem. I » You said it’s not a serious thing. So now you’re saying » fraud is a serious thing. » Okay. Well, that’s not on CNN, Mr. Ellison. You said this is a political matter and this is a quote. This is not a serious thing. So I notice you’re changing your tune now that you’re before the House Oversight Committee. I » I would have Do you understand, Mr. Attorney General, why this adds gasoline to the fire when Americans are so frustrated with this government for their out of control spending and the amount of money they pay in taxes. And then to see $9 billion of it, an estimate of $9 billion getting stolen of their taxpayer dollars and being used to fund cars and vacations and homes and even fund terrorism. Do you understand how statements like that throw gasoline on the fire, sir? Congressman, I believe that you are mischaracterizing what I said. So, » no, I actually read you the quote. I’m not video ready if you still want it. It’s up It’s up to you. » Yeah, let’s play it, please. » Is that there has been hundreds of millions of dollars, but now there are some estimates that there could be $9 billion or more. Gnome was just suggesting they took hundreds of people off the street who were involved in fraud. Are you confident your office has done enough? » Of course, we’ve done enough and we’re doing more every single day. This is a political matter. This is not a serious thing. » So, how how are you going to sit here attorney general saying I’m mischaracterizing? I I read word for word your quote. I then showed it to the entire disas the entire audience here today. How are you going to sit here and say that I mischaracterized you, » Congressman? I believe you mischaracterized me because clearly what I was referring to by not seriously is that the the serious issue of fraud is being politicized and converted into a political weapon. That is not a serious matter in my view. That is something that I believe all of us should take seriously, but we’re not taking seriously enough. So sir I I would say very clearly fraud is a is a odious horrible malignant thing and that’s why it should not be turned into a political weapon but we should come together on a bipartisan » the reason it’s becoming political sir is because of statements like that when confronted with the $9 billion of fraud in your state as the top cop in your state that you’re clearly not doing enough to address. I want to move on. Reverend Tolagard, you said in your opening statement that today’s hearing is about fraud in Minnesota, quote unquote, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has brought to the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rationale for deploying 3,000 federal immigrant enforcement agents into our state. Did you say that, Reverend? » Yes. » This is absolutely false. These federal agents were actually brought in to the state of Minnesota for a very specific operation to remove illegal alien alien criminals. It wasn’t because of the fraud. That’s being handled under a completely different agency and ICE and everything else. That’s the US District Attorney. Okay. Did you know that » the administration has linked all of these things together? Well, they’ve linked the they’ve linked the fact that you guys supported an open border that let in 15 to20 million and some of the fallout from that is fraud like the 9 billion we’re talking about today. Some of it are the rapist, the gangsters, the, you know, the people that are committing fraud. They’re burglarizing people. They’re carjacking people. It’s all kind of linked together. It’s also linked to the Save Act, which many of you guys and my Democrat colleagues don’t want to vote on vote for even though 83% of Americans support it. It’s all linked together, but that’s not what this operation was about. So, you’re bearing false witness in this in this hearing today because that’s not what that operation was about at all. What I’m here to talk about is the suffering of motans at the hands of federal agents including children and their parents and the great devastation and harm that it has caused across our state and across our wonderful communities. » Have you spoken about out about Lake and Riley or any of the American victims that have been » raped, murdered or killed by these illegal aliens? Reverend, » I didn’t think so. I yield back. » Gentleman yields back. Now chair recognizes Mr. men from California. » Uh thank you, Mr. Chair, for convening this hearing. Uh let’s start at the outset by just stating the obvious. Waste, fraud, and abuse are horrible. Uh they’re stealing from taxpayers. They’re taking money and food out of the mouths of hungry kids. Uh I have spent my career fighting against fraud. I started my career at the SEC, prosecuting corporate fraud, continued on as a law professor, teaching the next generation. Uh and as someone on the oversight committee, this is a very, very important issue to me. Again, every dollar that is stolen from these programs is a dollar that’s not just taken from us hardworking taxpayers. It is something that is meant for better use. Uh and so I appreciate the gist of this hearing, but as I pointed out in prior hearings on allegations of fraud in Minnesota, uh the singular and exclusive focus on the Somalian community in Minnesota seems very partisan and wrong because we know there’s massive fraud across this country, particularly in southern states, including states like Florida and Mississippi. Mississippi still at trial right now. Over $77 million in welfare fraud. Federal prosecutors have recently arrested a Russian national accused of submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent schemes in Texas and Florida. And of course, Oklahoma and Alabama consistently rank as the highest states when it comes to snap fraud. Uh and yet we’ve only focused on Minnesota. Why? As a freshman member, I’ve been here 14 months, but I’ve learned that their House Republicans are all singleisssue voters with just a handful of exceptions. And that single issue, the only thing that that you all care about is whether you’re on team Trump or not. And so when Donald Trump goes a after Minnesota and falsely claims that he won the election there three times and that it was rigged against him, I pay close attention when he says that he would no longer admit Somalians to this country because they contribute quote nothing to this country. I listen. That’s a wildly racist statement, but it’s going to reflect what Republicans are going to do. And that is why we’re holding this hearing. I care about welfare fraud and I care about the scumbags who rip off taxpayer money. But if this was about welfare fraud, we’d be also hauling in people like Mississippi Governor Tate Reeves and former NFL quarterback Brett Favre, who clearly knew about a scheme to uh send money to uh build a volleyball facility at the college his daughter was playing at, receive funds for 600,000 or more uh for work that he never did from the government. Again, taking money from the mouths of of children that are hungry. Now, this hearing is not about welfare fraud. It’s about placating Donald Trump. This committee is holding this hearing for the same reasons that it’s ignoring the massive corruption we know that Donald Trump is engaged in his family. Uh soliciting bribes from foreign governments and private companies in exchange for regulatory favor. For the same reason that Republicans are protecting pedophiles right now and that the DOJ is right now actively deleting Epstein files while we’re at war with Iran. It’s why they ignore their oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. It’s why we’re holding hearings on this rather than on ICE abuses or the fact that Donald Trump just took us into war without even consulting with Congress, let alone getting our authorization for military use or force or uh actual declaration of war in direct contravention of the Constitution of the United States. But for those of us who care about taxpayer dollars, let’s focus on that. Uh this is horrible. Uh but of course, we have seen instead a different type of abuse of our taxpayer dollars. They’ve taken our taxpayer dollars and used them to fund abuses against our American people as a number of our witnesses have aptly described. And I want to just point out that until the murder of Alex Prey, not a single DHS or ICE agent, accused of wrongdoing, witnessed or videotaped assaulting Americans, was suspended, face any disciplinary action. That doesn’t happen with police. When my local law enforcement are accused of misconduct, certainly if they’re videotaped shooting someone, uh they are subject to investigation. Maybe they’re justified or not, but they’re suspended, removed from duty, investigated. None of that has happened until the murder of Alex Prey and the outrage around that. Now, Governor Walls, I want to just briefly ask you, what’s the economic impact that the deployment of ICE in Minnesota has had over the past few months? » Well, thank you, Congressman. I thank you for your characterization. I I associate myself with you on fraud is horrific. It is corrosive. It hurts those people that are there, and taxpayers should demand accountability. And I think that’s what we’re trying to take. Um the issue can again » econ what’s the economic impact like I know business » look for us we just had our economic numbers and I would tell people we have to balance the budget every year Minnesota is strongly we’re AAA bond rated that shows up good it doesn’t account for what happened over the last three months and by estimates the city of Minneapolis estimates they lost $200 million alone and I remind people you saw pictures of Minneapolis this happened across the state near my hometown of Mano Minnesota in St. Peter, we saw a woman that was pulled over at gunpoint, a citizen. Uh the the chilling effect it had businesses going under, especially immigrant owned businesses, people who are here legally, citizens starting businesses. I’m just going to reclaim my time to make one final point here. Um I was at Minneapolis, had the chance to meet with you and others. Uh I also met with a number of local police chiefs and one of the things they told me first, this is not the first time I operated in Minnesota. Uh but in the past, what is different about this time is that they did not coordinate. They did not tell anyone. And that resulted in a lot of 911 calls because when you see mass men jumping out of vans, pulling people out, assaulting them, punching them in the head, as happens all the time with ICE agents. Uh and by the way, that’s not a matter of training. It’s a matter of picking people who are predisposed to violence. Uh that cost costs our local police quite a lot of money. is one of the reasons I’m going to be introducing the recoup act so that local jurisdictions are repaid for the funds that they expend due to ICE misconduct. With that, I yield back. » Gentlemen, yield back. Before I recognize Miss Boowbert, uh Mr. Gil, I understand you have a UC. » Yep. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from the America First Policy Institute dated March 3rd, 2026, which details uh widespread and rampant fraud in Minnesota. » Without objection, so order. chair. Now recognize Miss Boowbert from Colorado. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m going to summarize some of the things that have already been said here today rather than ask uh these questions directly. Um the federal prosecutors uh that we have have now charged nearly 100 individuals across multiple um Minnesota fraud schemes including Feeding Our Future and related Medicaid daycare and autism programs with 85 of those charged being of Somali descent. Governor Walls, your administration’s Department of Education and Department of Human Services failed to act on multiple early fraud warnings about feeding our future, allowing the theft of at least $250 million in federal child nutrition uh funds that were supposed to feed hungry kids during the CO 19 pandemic. Governor Walls, I’d like to turn to the demographics and policy choices that enabled this. Since you took office, a Somali population in Minnesota has grown substantially. Recently, uh, Fox 9 reported um, the reporting puts the total over 107,000. Did your administration’s soft on immigration policies, including expanded refugee programs and temporary protected status, contribute to that rapid growth? I couldn’t speak to why people move to Minnesota other than it’s a great » sanctuary policy and refugee programs and temporary protected statuses. Uh according to the Center for Immigration Studies analysis of uh census data, 81% of Minnesota households headed by Somali immigrants receive one or more forms of public assistance compared to just 21% of nativeborn households. Why is that disparity so extreme under your watch, sir? » I can’t speak specifically, Congressman, but I would uh anticipate that new generation immigrants, whether they be Norwegian or whether they be uh Mong or whether they be Somali, probably on the front end as they’re establishing home ownership, education. » I think we should be bringing folks to our country that are going to contribute and not just siphon off of the tax dollars citizens. Uh Mr. Governor Walls, yes or no. Would stricter vetting of immigrants and refugees have um prevented many of these fraudsters from entering our country in the first place? » I wouldn’t have any way to know that. » Do you agree with stricter vetting processes for those who are coming to our country? » I don’t care where you’re coming from. If you commit fraud, you’re going to jail in Minnesota. That’s what I care about and that’s what I’m here for. » Yes or no? Should Somali immigrants or any other immigrants uh who defraud American taxpayers uh and steal funds intended for hungry children be deported immediately? » That’s a decision for the federal government. You’re responsible for immigration. » Governor Walls, do you know who Victoria Eileene Harwell is? » I do not believe I do. » What about American Mafala Tire? » I don’t believe I do. there. Uh, these are Minnesota women who were brutally killed by illegal aliens in your state. You don’t know who they are, so I would also assume that you did not attend uh their vigils or speak out to their families when they were brutally killed by illegal aliens. » I’m not familiar with both of these. No, Congresswoman. » No, just just the hard-hitting CNN ones. Uh, yes or no. Would you support ending mot end ending Minnesota’s sanctuary policies to stop these fraudsters and murderers uh from using your state as a safe haven? » Well, as I said on June 12th, we don’t have sanctuary policies and Tom Holman reiterated that here in the past few weeks that we do not either and that we are cooperating. » Will you direct Thank you, Governor. Will you direct local law enforcement to fully cooperate with ICE and federal agents um and follow federal im immigration laws that are currently on the books? » They do. If they want to do more, they can, but we have a floor that they have to. And that’s been proven time and time again in Minnesota over this. That’s why they’re not they’re leaving because we had cooperated. » Okay. Final question for you, Governor. There are multiple documented reports of Somali immigrants entering sham marriages including siblings uh and close family members solely for immigration purposes. Are you aware of these reports? And what if anything has your administration done to stop this kind of immigration fraud happening in your state? States are not responsible for immigration screening and I’m not familiar with what you’re what » we’re not responsible for any vetting whatsoever. » Federal government » well this is happening under your watch and there’s immigration fraud. So we will do everything that we can um and hopefully you allow your uh local law enforcement officers to coordinate with federal agents when we are going after these immigration fraudsters » as we do. Governor, » thank you madam. Uh chair now recognizes Mr. Walkenshaw from Virginia. » Thank you Mr. Chairman. Um, Governor, would you agree that fraud is not a victimless crime? » I would agree with that. It It is not a victimless crime. » Thank you. And it’s my understanding that in Minnesota, you as governor, you do not have the unilateral power to pardon those convicted of state crimes, but you and Mr. Ellison and I think one other person sit on a panel that can issue pardons. Is that correct? » Yes, with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. » Thank you. In your time on that panel, can you recall ever pardoning an individual convicted of fraud? » I I can’t recall. I can’t state either way. » Okay. Mr. Ellison, any recollection of that? » It it’s it’s it’s possible. I don’t recall it though. » Okay. I’m not sure if it’s true in Minnesota, but at the federal level, if a convicted fraudster is pardoned, that pardon can wipe out their obligation to pay restitution to the victims. Are any of our witnesses uh familiar with this individual? I know you’re far away. His name is Jason Galanis. Sound familiar? » I am not, Congressman. » Jason Galanis, according to the federal judge who sentenced him to 15 years in prison, is a serial fraudster in a con man who defrauded a pension fund in a Native American tribe of $80 million. I’ll put it in simpler terms. He stole money from retirees. Do any of our witnesses know what federal prison Mr. Galanis is being held in? » I do not, Congressman. » He’s not because President Trump, our fraudster and chief, the namesake of the fraudulent Trump University, the fraudulent Trump Foundation, the fraudulent Trump Organization, pardoned him and relieved him of the requirement to pay restitution to his victims. A member of this committee, Mr. Jordan recommended to President Trump that he be pardoned. Any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? His name is Jeremy Hutcherson. Hutchinson. » I am not, Congressman. » Mr. Hutchinson is a former Arkansas state senator, Republican, convicted of a multi-million dollar public corruption scheme, embezzlement, bribes, illegal campaign contributions, conspiracy to commit bribery. Mr. Hman might know something about that. For passing legislation that benefited an orthodontist who was paying him off, President Trump’s Department of Justice in his first term prosecuted him. A judge sentenced him to 8 years in prison and ordered him to pay $355,000 in restitution to his victims. Any of our witnesses know where Mr. Hutchinson is serving that sentence today? » I have a guess. » I have a guess, too. He’s not serving a sentence because President Trump pardoned him, relieving him of his restitution obligation. A corrupt politician prosecuted by Trump’s Justice Department in the first term, pardoned by Trump in this term. Trump has pardoned fraudster after fraudster, denying victims, we talked about victims, taxpayers, senior citizens, children the restitution they deserve, $1.3 billion. That’s the total that Trump’s pardon fraudsters have been relieved of paying their victims. The chairman called this hearing because he’s concerned about fraud, about accountability. I share those concerns. But where is the hearing on the $1.3 billion dollar Trump has relieved his pardon fraudsters from paying their victims? Do those victims get a voice in this Congress? There’s a lot of outrage today. Raised voices on both sides. Will we raise our voices on behalf of those who have been victimized by President Trump’s pardon fraudsters? Governor Waltz, what signal would it send if you and Attorney General Ellison and the judge who sit on this panel were to pardon some of the fraudsters who have committed this fraud in Minnesota? What signal would would that send? What impact could that have? » Congressman, I believe it would send a signal that we don’t take it seriously because you have to put these people in jail and they have to serve their lengthy sentences and they have to do restitution. And just hypothetically here, if you were to pardon one of those individuals, how would you explain it to the victims of that fraud? The taxpayers across the country, those individuals who didn’t get access to the social services they need because the money was stolen. How would you explain it to them? » I don’t believe I could. » I don’t think you could either. Ma may I share uh Congressman that generally when people get any kind of a pardon in Minnesota? They’ve done all their sentence and Governor Walls is very careful to say, “Have you paid every penny you owe people?” » So that that’s kind of how we do pardons in Minnesota. » Well, these folks have not paid their pennies, $1.3 billion worth of pennies. » I would the gentleman yield to a question. » My time’s expired, Mr. Chairman. » More time if you want. I mean, you you mentioned Jason Galanis, and that piqu my interest, and I’m sure it did Mr. Biggs as well. Uh, and I think and you are correct. He did defraud an Indian uh or a Native American pension fund. Do you know who his partner was? » I I I know all the background of it. The point is he stole money. » Would you state who his partner was? » You is Hunter Biden. And Jason Jason Galanis served in prison for how long, Mr. Big? » Two years. » No, that’s incorrect. Oh, he served in prison years. » Many years. And they were equal partners. And Golinus blew the whistle during our B investigation. And he was raped. » He was raped in prison right after that. So that’s correct. Will the victims of his fraud get their money back? Why did Ask Hunter Biden ask President Trump? You weren’t here. You weren’t here during the President Trump to get the victims their money back. » Three months, but you know more than anybody about everything. So, chairman, chair recognizes Mr. Biggs from Arizona. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, and I’m glad glad you brought it up because of the 10 partners in in that fraud that you mentioned, nine of them went to prison. Do you know who the one partner was that didn’t go? Your buddy, Hunter Biden. That’s That’s right. Hunter Biden didn’t go. And And by the way, you didn’t you must not have been here. I don’t think you were here when I introduced all these all these uh documents earlier before I had to leave to go to judiciary talking about of the 1,500 criminals uh pardoned by uh Joe Biden in one week, two dozen of them were fraudsters that had hundreds of millions of dollars of restitution forgiven by Joe Joe. Now I’m going to go now to Mr. Ellison. » Will the gentleman yield? » No, I’m I’m No, I’ve had enough of you. Let’s talk to to Mr. Mr. Ellison. Uh, Mr. Ellison, isn’t it true that when you were a member of Congress, you sponsored the Money Remittances Improvement Act of 2014? It was HR 4386. Do you remember that, » Congressman? I think that it’s accurate. » Yeah, I I mean, I’m I get you. We we we all introduced lots of bills, but that bill’s purpose was to give more authority to states to investigate remittance payments. Do you remember that, » Congressman? I believe that the purpose of that bill was to facilitate financial transactions for motans who needed them. » Well, in in reality, you you shifted remittance payment investigations to the states and that was supported by the Somali American Remittances Association. You may not remember that, but that’s that was » Congressman, could you remind me, did that bill ever pass? » HR4386. So it was supported by Somali American Resistance Association and it was so important to you that you said quote this is a great day for diaspora communities around the country including the Somali and Mong communities. Um and that that’s something you said and um and we know that the Somali population in Minnesota in Minnesota supported that bill. Uh that bill was passed I believe in 2014. Minnesota started identifying large numbers of remittances payments going overseas and isn’t it true that within four years of the bill passing more than $100 million had been flown out of the Minneapolis airport by Somalians do you know that » I don’t have the information on that » and over the last two years the TSA has identified over $700 million being flown out and linked to Somali travel are you familiar with that » no sir I don’t have the data on that » um under your tenure as the AG the amount of remitt remittance payments going to Somalia which by the way some estimates as high as 40% of all Somalia’s uh GDP comes from those uh remittance payments and roughly 40 same number of 40% of families in Somalia receive some benefit uh economic benefit directly from uh remittance payments so moving from that do you know Saleem say » that name is not familiar to me Iran Muhammad No. Uh, Absir Omar. » No. Okay. So, um, in 2021, you met with a group of Somali of Somali’s business people. Those three people were there. Safari restaurant partners in quality care, also known as parties in nutrition. uh some of their named partners and feeding our future representatives including Abi Omar who said they were having difficulties because they were being investigated um and that conduct is very racist, xenophobic and islamophobic. Uh do you remember that meeting? » Yes, I do. Uh and I and I’ll tell you that these are people who were fraudsters. They lied to me. They lied to the judge. They lied to state agencies and that’s why we contributed to them being convicted. » Well, let’s let’s go on from that because you you may not remember uh some of the things you said to them uh specifically uh and and maybe we should play this video. I don’t know if we do we have the video queued up. If we have the video queued up, that’s fine. Let’s do it. » You call them and say this is not in the right format. Not you’re out. » You’re done. your contracts are over » and so this has my attention. I’m extremely frustrated by it, but we are in the middle of a battle with the agencies now. » And I I can tell you this. Um Walls agrees with me that this pitily stupid stuff running small people out of business is terrible. Because what you’re what you’re what you thought was terrible there » was that these people were being investigated for fraud and you later took $10,000 in campaign donations from these same individuals. Do you remember that? » I would disagree with that characterization entirely, sir. » I’m sure you would. No. What I was » because it’s sure surely uncomfortable for you. But you took $10,000 from those same people that were ostensibly supposed to be investigated. Yeah. » No, that that’s actually inaccurate. » No, it’s not inaccurate. Well, » it is. First of all, you’re you’re entitled to say it’s inaccurate, but the facts are the facts. And my time’s expired, Mr. Chairman, but I do have some I do have some UC requests. » Go ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Minnesota AG, who took $10,000 from convicted scammers, dismisses fraud scandal as political theater. » Without objection, » Amy Bach alleges Governor Tim Waltz Attorney General Keith Ellison knew of Minnesota fraud. » Without objection. Waltz and Omar using ICE operations to distract from fraud scandal. » The objection. » Tim Waltz accused of stonewalling key probe as Somali fraud sweeps his state. » Without objection. » Conservatives blast Dims Waltz for likening ICE agents to Nazi police force. » Without objection. » Tim Waltz urges motans to resist federal occupation. » Without objection. » Tim Waltz was a CO 19 tyrant. » Without objection. Anti-ICE agitators set up blockade on Minneapolis street to check drivers license plates » without objection to » Minnesota attorney general’s legal opinion could threaten some county agreements with ICE » without objection to » ICE restricted from Minneapolis owned parking areas under mayor fry orders Minnesota mom jailed over CO accuses Wallace of tyranny Minnesota grandma jailed for defying Wallace COVID lockdown order warns you do not want tyranny at this level and mother ponders and that’s all I do » without objection to order chair now recognize Miss Presley from Massachusetts. » I’ve been in Congress now for almost eight years and one of the most meaningful moments uh that I experienced here um was in the committee on um oversight and reform uh under the great uh chairman Elijah Cummings. It was the first uh hearing to take place um that I introduced in the House of Representatives on the epidemic that is childhood trauma. Though I represent the Massachusetts 7th, um, one through line has remained uh, true in my travels and conversations from Massachusetts to Minnesota to Illinois to Texas, and it is the devastating impacts of Trump’s terror campaign on our nation’s children. This administration’s policies, including but certainly not limited to Operation Metro Surge, um, in my opinion, I would characterize as child abuse, uh, child neglect and inflicting childhood trauma. Uh, we are experiencing in real time the compounded adultifying of our children where increasingly so a childhood is a privilege instead of a right. I’m reminded of a conversation I had recently at the airport uh where a dad approached me to talk about his six-year-old son who returned home from school uh pleading and begging for his parents to give safe haven uh to his classmate, his best friend, uh for fear that if they did not do that that he would be deported. No child should have those concerns or carry that heavy burden. But this is the reality for our nation’s children. uh under Donald Trump’s America, Frederick Douglas said, “It is uh easier to build strong children than to repair broken men.” We are certainly not building strong children. In my district, the Massachusetts 7th, Elany was only two weeks old when her father was uh wrongfully taken by ICE, a trauma that she will carry for the rest of her life. Again, so far I’m speaking about the pleas of a six-year-old and um the policy uh rather the family separation of a two-week old in Minnesota. Liam Ramos was uh only with the age of five years old was detained by ICE and sent to Texas and he’ll carry that trauma for the rest of his life. There are the children that are directly impacted. Uh then there is that secondary trauma for those who have bore witness. While in Minnesota, I met with parents who have had to establish parental patrols armed with whistles and orange vests and their cameras to try to keep their children safe. Uh Green Street Elementary, it was just across the street from one of the murders that occurred in broad daylight uh under Operation Metro Surge. Around the country, the children of Renee Good, Keith Porter, Haraldo Campos, and dozens of other children whose parents were killed by ICE agents will carry that trauma the rest of their lives. Trauma in their bodies, their classrooms, their sleep. It shows up in the ways they cling to their parents at school drop off, in the silence of a child who used to speak freely in nightmares that no children, no child should be visited by. Governor Walls is a former educator and coach. You work closely with young people experiencing traumatic events. What effect does this have on them, their classmates and community? And have you heard from um mental health uh professionals or pediatric providers about how this is showing up in your state? » No. Well, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. First of all, I would say when I talk about Minnesota being one of the best states, if we’re not first, it’s usually because Massachusetts is. And I note that it is true because you care about this and you mentioned it correctly. This is generational trauma that’s been inflicted whether it’s learning loss that’s happened or the trauma we’ve seen amongst our our children. Um I say that as an educator as governor the deep concern but as a parent of seeing this what’s happened to our children. We know that mental health issues will start to show up. We know that we’ll see educational loss and those have generational impacts on our economy and everything else. I will note um your colleague mentioned me being a tyrant during COVID. We had some of the lowest deaths due to CO tyrant looks like children being drugged from their parents. Old people being drugged out of their house without warrants, two dead on the streets. And your point, the world saw a piece of it on TV. I can tell you none of us are going to be the same, Congresswoman. We are going to deal with this and we are going to put money into social service programs to address it while we tighten up fraud protections because the idea is is you have all these generous programs. Yes. And our people are healthier. Our people are more educated, our economy is stronger. So thank you. » Thank you. I I ask you Dan’s consent to enter into the record a February 2026 article from Heckinger Report titled Parental Stress Raids and Isolation. Immigration enforcement traumatizes even the youngest children. » Yes. » Without objection to ordered. » You know, as I close, I’ve always taken issue with the myth that children are resilient. It something that people say because I guess it brings them comfort. The false notion that if you hurt kids, they will automatically heal. It allows policy makers to inflict harm and then to look away. But children are not collateral for reckless and godless policies. and they should not be ignored. Rather, we should center children to understand the impacts of all these policies and um Governor Walls uh with these remaining. » I’m sorry, ma’am. Uh » well, I yield. » All right. Thank you. Chair now recognizes Mr. Sessions from Texas. » Mr. Chairman, thank you very much to my two former colleagues. I would welcome you back and I know that this is something that uh is not as easily done and I recognize that. I want to thank our Methodist preacher for being here. I want to put in some context uh what you’ve heard today and that is probably to both of you not a lot has changed up here. We’re still trying to play the gotcha game. We’re still trying to people are trying to do their job. That’s what we are trying to do here. We come back and talk about children, yet we forget that that President Biden, President Obama had tens of thousands, 800,000 children that were lost by them that President Trump is still trying to find. We talk about not trusting ICE, which is a federal component, and yet the Boston bombers caused chaos. I can’t imagine why we wouldn’t want to form up a relationship instead of saying ICE is no good. We don’t want you. It is the federal component. So, with all that said, in fairness to each of you, you’ve heard what we’ve said today. So, I would ask you, Governor, uh, and then I I will say it right up front. I was kind of hoping that you might show up or both of you might show up because your Methodist a Methodist preacher is here and say we didn’t do everything right. We think there were a lot of things done wrong. We think we want to learn. We come and ask that you understand that this is something that happened in our midst. My Methodist preacher, uh I’m a global Methodist. My Methodist preacher meets with me pretty often and make sure that uh he knows and I know I look for balance. I look for fairness. I look for objectivity. And I know you’ve not been placed in a very good position now, but I got three minutes left. Governor, what did we do wrong here? What what how do you want to set that record straight? Because otherwise it’s going to be he said against you guys. And I want you to tell me where did we get it wrong on this side? » Well, Congressman, I appreciate that and I do say and you and I are friends. » We are. And I’ve said it publicly before. We disagreed on some issues, but we had a lot of conversations on the floor. Look, I I think I agree with you as governor. I’ve taken accountability for this. I’m not going to run again. I need to spend the time fixing this. This does undermine trust in government. Do I wish there were things that could have happened earlier? Yes. But in this job, wish didn’t do it. I’m looking into where I see it. I can tell you this, Congressman, that the safeguards we’re putting in place are going to make a difference. I think other states can use them. I think one of the things is I asked if helping in the partnership piece of this understanding that this happens in all states. I’m certainly not proud this happened. I certainly understand it happened on my watch. Whether it predated me or not, I’m here. I think some of the things is there’s some legal changes we need around Medicaid eligibility issues that you’re talking about that actually might get at this because I would hope Congressman you and I agree these programs are valuable and they need to go to the people who need them and we need to stop the fraud that’s in there and I’m trying to explain to you what we’ve did from the beginning. These people continue to be a moving target and they are very sophisticated. » Is there still a problem? » Is there still fraud happening? » Is there still a problem? And we’ll say in Minnesota I I know we’re not » I think there’s more work to be done. Yes, I will tell you that and we’re working on it. I have a package that I introduced last week. One of the things that I think is going to be helpful and I know you’re working on it up here is the ability to use AI. It’s the pre-screening. What you don’t want to hear from us is and I don’t want to hear that we’re arresting people after they did it. We need to stop it before it happened. And » I agree with some of that. We do need to arrest them. » We do. But if we’re continuously chasing our tails, it’s like I said, if you if you arrest » I’d like to keep working with you because we’ve got to stop this. And so I would walk If you put together a list that we can send to other governors and say here’s what we did, that’s general. » That’s fantastic. » Congressman Sessions, let me just say thank you for your question. I absolutely think there is more that all of us can do to protect the public dollar and get the money where it was intended to go. There are all kind of ways to make sure. » Yes, sir. We’re talking about the lessons learned. Are you going to show up today and and take as the governor did and say, “We made a mistake. I owe an apology to people. We believe that what you’ve tried to do today to defend I’m not trying to put you in a corner, General. I’m trying to get you because we’re sitting here trying to get to where we’re going to go. I can assure you, Congressman, that I am here to work to improve this system and there are improvements that can be made and your offer to work on a bipartisan basis to solve this fraud crisis, I am allin and uh if we could get to if we can get out of fixing the blame and get to fixing the problem, that would be an enormous thing for me. And I and I thank you for asking. Well, it’s my hope that you will know that being here today, we’re doing our job, other people doing their job, but we’ve got to get to where we can then say, and here is the problem, and we’ll take the governor did. I accept responsibility and let’s get on to fixing this because tomorrow is a new day. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the time to yield back my time. » Thank you. Chair recognizes my friend, Miss Talib. » He says that, but then he cuts me off. Um, thank you all all uh for coming here. I think it’s really important and you know, Reverend, you uh I can tell that you care deeply about your community and uh it takes courage to come before this committee. Uh especially when you hear so much um to me just misinformation um also embedded in racist tropes uh about your community. Um, and so I wanted to ask you, you know, I think a lot of Americans when you think about it, what compelled you uh to speak out and join hundreds of other faith leaders at the Minnesota um the St. Paul airport to protest against the violent ICE occupation of your community? » Thank you uh for the question. I yes I am here uh just as I was that day at at the airport because I am representative of so many motans who are actively engaged in the work of neighboring and I’m also here as I was that day because there are so many motans for whom it is not safe to speak out today » and I’ll tell you uh you know we’re learning a lot I think the country the whole country is learning a lot um from all of you and your neighboring and showing love and showing up for your community. And I know it took a lot of courage for even some of the elected officials to stand up and say, uh, you know, not on our watch. Um, you know, we talk about the fearlessness that is needed sometimes to fight for our rights. And some people will continue to gaslight folks and call us domestic terrorists, to surveil us more, to try to bully us and intimidate us to silence. And I just want the Minnesota people to know, I know my district sees you all and we say continue it. uh you are freeing all of us when you continue to speak up and you’re protecting all of us as well. Um in response to of course the powerful local resistance, you know, one of the things um they keep saying is it’s ended. It’s done. Um you heard my colleague from Boston uh Congresswoman Ayanna Presley talk about trauma. It’s not done. Uh there needs to be a lot of healing and I don’t think they want to fund that or or support that. But I I I’m asking just as myself and many of us in my district are wondering, is it truthful? Are they done? » Unfortunately, it’s not over. As we heard, there are still 650 ICE agents in Minnesota. That means there is still fear and trauma for our children and for our immigrant and refugee neighbors. And it and it and as Miss uh Priestley named the the trauma will go on and we have much work to do on in healing and caring for especially those who’ve been most victimized in this. » So I want to talk about intention. What’s the intent of this hearing? What’s the intent of all of it? » I think intention is important because you know for the chairman if I can submit um for the record article titled fraud focus. Why is Trump granting clemency to convicted fraudsters » without objection to order? » Because I see this and even though you’re here, you have nothing to hide. These folks are not here. I don’t get to question them. I don’t get to say to the guy that committed $200 million Medicare fraud who just got pardoned by Trump. I don’t get to ask Jared Kushner, you know, why is your dad go from literally in France the title of the article is uh prison to Paris. literally from committing fraud, he pardons uh his son-in-law’s father and now he’s an ambassador. You see all that happening. It’s like, well, what’s the intention here? They’re creating uh a world’s largest uh paramilitary under the direct control of the president who has made it clear that he intends to crush dcent to crush dcent, target entire cities, and rig elections. He literally is telling us he’s going to send ICE agents out on election day to intimidate and target our community. He’s not lying. He’s going to do it. And I think we need to be very very much prepared. At the same time, intention governor, I seeing him uh in this administration freeze funding freeze and blaming all of these people like I hope people don’t blame my community for everything Trump’s doing. Do you know what I mean? Like I mean can you imagine right now the impact that this happening? What what I mean can you what impact is it going to really have right now? I mean you’re talking about today this is cut off and he’s refusing to let go of the money that again Minnesota actually uh is supposed to rightfully get appropriated. » 400,000 children lose health care. Pregnant women and elderly and rural hospitals will be severely impacted and potentially closed. It’s hard because I wonder if they would do that in Kentucky where they have fraud, in Tennessee where they have fraud. » Their own numbers show that our error rate is 2.1%. The national average is 6%. » Oh, I know you guys testified about it. Uh, attorney general, um, even though, you know, you gave everybody else 30 seconds. I need to ask you, I mean, you’re here today. » What could you be doing right now? You’re attorney general. You’re doing what what today if you were at work instead of here to be honest. I mean, can you explain what what what’s back home that you have work to do at home? Like, what can you be doing instead? » Microphone, please. » One thing I have is a Medicaid fraud bill that I’m trying to get passed to increase. » The legislature is in session. » The legislature is in session and I’m supposed to meet with House Caucus leaders tonight hoping to make that uh so that we can do more uh to stop fraud. » Yeah. So that that’s one thing I could be doing among 20 others. » Well, I’ll tell you, you know, I’m always reminded and please bear with me, Chairman Cormmore, our amazing uh you know, former chair, um Elijah Cummings, first hearing I ever had as a freshman was on the high cost of prescription drugs. It was incredible. It was powerful. It was real. And the intent there was, let’s make sure people that get sick are taken care of. I’m just so tired of these hearings that are just politicized in a way that is not consistent because if he’s doing this, why are you targeting innocent people? Thank you. » Thank you, Mr. Lee. I gave you an extra minute and 15 seconds to criticize criticize the chairman of the committee. So, uh, but I do like Mr. Lee. Chair recognizes Mr. Gil from Texas. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, uh, to the witnesses for taking the time to be here. Uh, Governor Walter, are you familiar with the early intensive developmental and behavioral intervention benefit? » I am, Congressman. » Got it. It’s a provides services for autism patients. Is that right? » That is correct. » Got it. And and when were you when did you become governor? » Uh, in January of 2019. » In 2019. Okay. So, using 2018 as a baseline, do you know what that program paid uh in Medicaid claims? I do not, Congressman. It » was about $671,000. Do you know what that program paid in Medicaid claims in 2024? » I don’t have the number in front of me. » Three $342 million. That’s about a 500x increase over 6 years. Were there was there 500 times the number of autism patients uh in in that time period? » I couldn’t spec speak specifically to it, but I will say, Congressman, that » that doesn’t sound reasonable, right? you know, there was a 500x increase in the number of autism patients in six years, right? » Correct. And that’s why we ordered on-site visits starting back in » So, we agree that that that doesn’t sound reasonable. Would you also agree that a single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar too much to tolerate? » Yes. » Yep. And and would you agree that as governor ultimately you’re responsible if tax dollars are defrauded? » Yes, I would agree. » Would you also agree that calling somebody racist is a serious accusation? if they are racist. I think it’s » I’m asking you if is that a serious accusation to make to about somebody. » I I think it’s just an observation of reality. » All right. Well, let let’s go there. Is it racist for for a government official to identify fraud? » No. » No. Is is it Islamophobic? » To identify fraud? » To identify fraud? » I No, I don’t believe it would be. How how come multiple whistleblowers have said that your administration told them not to say anything about widespread fraud across multiple agencies because doing so would be considered racist or islamophobic. » I can’t speak to it because it’s not anything I would say. » Well, that that’s what your administration has said and has told whistleblowers and as you just testified, the buck stops with you. It’s what you stated in your uh in your statement whenever you announced you weren’t running again. Are you familiar with FA Bernstein? I I Yes, I’m familiar with the name. » She’s a Democrat, isn’t she? » I wouldn’t know that. » She She’s stated publicly that she’s a Democrat. She’s only voted Democrat in in her life. Um she’s also stated publicly um that she was retaliated against and called racist and that her work responsibilities were diminished whenever she was highlighting fraud within your administration. Are you familiar with that? » I couldn’t speak to allegations. » Why do you think she would say that? » I can’t speak for what you No idea. » I I do not » You You would You would agree that the tone in your administration comes from from you ultimately, right? » The tone is that » the tone of of how you might deal with whistleblowers, » right? And we protect them. » It doesn’t sound like you’re you’re protecting them. We heard from Representative Kristen Robbins, quote, “We have dozens of credible whistleblower reports saying the exact same thing that people were told not to say anything because they’d be called racist or islamophobic or it would hurt the state.” Do you think it’s racist or Islamophobic to highlight and try to stop fraud? » It is not and I certainly would. » It’s not. But that was the message your administration was sending to multiple whistleblowers. » I can’t speak to that. » You can’t speak to that. You know, you don’t want to speak to that. I think » I have I have over 40,000 retaliated. » Pardon me. » Do do you think whistleblowers should be retaliated against? » Absolutely not. They have strong protections in Minnesota and lots of paths and the paths go. » That’s not what we’re hearing from whistleblowers. Fay Bernstein, who again has stated that she is a Democrat, she’s only ever voted Democrat, says that she doesn’t matter whether she’s Democrat or Republic campaign for trying to make leadership aware of illegal contracting practices. Why do you think that happened? » I can’t speak to that, Congressman, because we don’t do it. » You just don’t you don’t know anything. » I do know that it that we don’t we have strong whistleblower protections, and I can’t speak. » That’s not what the whistleblowers are saying. According to another report, quote, “There’s just a continuous effort to stifle you, to shut you up, and it’s impossible to overcome.” Your administration’s response to whistleblowers has also been described as quote nearly unbearable retaliation. We’ve heard claims that quote, “They’ve been denied vacations, promotions, and that it’s hurt people’s careers to speak out against fraud.” Do you think that that had something to do with with the prevalence of fraud in your administration? I I can’t speak to it, but it » Are you going to take responsibility for this? » I certainly I supervised 40,000 employees. State agencies have » supervised a lot a lot of employees and and as you have said, the buck stops with you and your administration has treated whistleblowers like absolute dirt. And that’s a big reason why we’ve seen so much of our hard-earned tax dollars defrauded. » There’s Look, Congressman, I told you we have strong protections. We have the an office of office committee has spoken to nearly 30 whistleblowers » most of which are current employees in your administration who have intimate knowledge of what what’s been going on who have all stated that they’ve faced retaliation for calling out fraud. » I can’t speak to them what they felt. » My time is up. I yield back. » Recognize dismiss and sorry. » Mr. Chairman, it’s outrageous that this is what we’re choosing to spend our time on on the oversight committee. At the first one, » fraud. » At the first one, yes, fraud, because let’s talk about fraud. At the first one of these ridiculous series of hearings on Minnesota, I brought up the dozens of horrific ongoing corruption scandals in the Trump administration, but I know very scared of Donald Trump, so we won’t be talking about those. But those are the things that we should be investigating on the oversight committee. Now, we have another one. The Department of Justice was caught red-handed withholding explosive and credible FBI witness interviews of a woman who accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her when she was a minor. Shouldn’t we hold a hearing on that? Shouldn’t Pam Bondi be here forced to testify why she is violating the law that Congress passed the Epstein Files Transparency Act nearly unanimously along with this committee subpoena. But since the Republican majority instead wants to have a conversation about Minnesota, then let’s do that. The Trump Epstein regime’s deployment of thousands of ICE agents, Donald Trump’s personal secret police force is a fascist disgrace. These untrained agents terrorized the people of Minnesota, violated their rights, and even shot them dead in the streets. I want to remind us all about what happened to Alex Prey, an intensive care nurse. murdered by CBP agents while trying to protect a woman that the officers were assaulting. After his murder, Steven Miller said Alex was quote, “A domestic terrorist who tried to assassinate federal law enforcement, a would-be assassin and an assassin.” Christy Gnome said Alex was quote committing an act of domestic terrorism. She said, “I don’t know any peaceful protester that shows up with a gun and ammunition rather than a sign.” She accused Alex Prey of brandishing a weapon despite video evidence showing the gun never left its holster. Greg Bevino said, quote, “This looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.” And Donald Trump said Alex was quote a gunman whose weapon was loaded with two additional full magazines and ready to go. He said Alex was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist. Obviously projecting about himself. Dictators in other countries would literally be impressed at how brazen these lies and propaganda spread by the Trump regime and Christy Gnome are. So, Governor Walls, I want to thank you and Attorney General Ellison for putting up with all of the lying and hypocrisy from the Republican majority. Governor, is the Trump administration attempting to block Minnesota state and local police from investigating the murders of Alex Prey and Renee Nicole? Renee Nicole. Good. » I believe we’re not getting any cooperation and we were told we would not be part of that. Attorney General may know more. » Yes, Congresswoman. Uh we have been told that we would not have access to uh investigative file which would include uh evidence that would be relevant to the investigation in both cases and even there’s one shooting incident that does where that was non-fatal and that one has also been we’ve been frozen out in that as well. » So two follow » you had to go to court to get the evidence preserved. » Okay. And two follow-up questions on whichever one of you wants to answer. Why do you think that might be the case? And is this out of the ordinary? » It is wildly out of the ordinary. Uh I can tell you that our local FBI ATF, even before Operation Metro Surge, you didn’t you you know, you you heard about ICE matters, but you didn’t hear about it nearly as much as we do now. This is an extraordinary departure from what we know and we routinely work with federal partners and we’ve haven’t never had problems until now like this. » I would just speculate that they need to take accountability for it and I think they understood what the world saw that this was improper and it needs to have justice for these families and it doesn’t appear. I hope those questions are being asked of uh Secretary Gnome today. » And Governor Walls and Attorney General Ellison, are you committed to getting to the truth about the murders of Alex Prey and Renee Good? » Absolutely. Yes. Yes. I pledge to their families we do that. » Thank you. We need to hold this administration accountable for these murders, starting by impeaching Christine Gnome for gross misconduct, lying to Congress, and failure to uphold the laws and the Constitution. I yield back. Chair recognizes Mr. Growthman from Wisconsin. » Thank you. We’ll go for Governor Walls again. Um, a major focus of today’s hearings been the misuse of federal funds distributed through the child care and development block grant. This program is supposed to be helping working families afford child care and I think the taxpayers expect these programs to be protected from waste and fraud. Most programs op most states operate these programs responsibly. The national improper payment average is about 4%. Um, as you know, I kind of watch what’s going on in Minnesota because it’s a state adjacent to Wisconsin. Uh, and it’s amazing if you’re a congressman, the number of people who get Minnesota and Wisconsin confused. Uh, but when that number climbs above the national average of 4%, it should be a warning sign that oversight has failed. Minnesota’s improper payment rate got up to 11%. That’s not a small administrative mistake, over almost three times the national average. That is a system that’s clearly not being monitored the way it should be. When Wisconsin had a similar program several years ago when I was in the state legislature in 2010, we uncovered fraud in our child care assistance program. Wisconsin did not look away. We took responsibility, implemented serious reforms, and those reforms included expanding background checks for providers, creating a dedicated fraud investigated investigation unit, strengthening eligibility requirements, and instituting a comprehensive audit system. Uh, that would have been Scott Walker was governor. Because of of these reforms, Wisconsin now has an improper payment of under 1%. So, in other words, we almost totally wiped out the problem. Didn’t happen by accident. And it happened because Governor Walker took responsibility and acted quickly. He thought fraud was a problem. Uh, Governor Waltz, Minnesota had similar warning signs. Investigators, auditors, even internal officials kept raising concerns about fraud in social service systems. And it didn’t just cost taxpayers money. These programs are meant to help children and working families. When fraud drains millions of these dollars from these programs, that money is not reaching the people it was intended to serve. First of all, Governor Walls, when your when did your administration first become aware that fraud risks were escalating in Minnesota’s child care assistant program? You were kind of an outlier in the whole country. » Well, thank you, Congressman. This dates back to about 2012 um that action has been being taken. And as I stated earlier, on our first days in office, we started taking action. I would ask if I could on this. Anything that Governor Walker did, I would appreciate if you’d show us what those actions were. We’re we’re more than happy to implement them and that’s what we’ve started over the last seven years. » Reports indicate that some providers continued receiving payments even after the fraud concerns were raised. Was that a decision made by your administration? and who specifically you feel did not » I I can’t speak specifically to which those were. Decisions are made at the department level, but I can’t speak to what those allegations were. » We’re told it was still 11% uh under your uh administration. When fraud indicators appear in a program funded by federal taxpayers, do you believe the responsibility the responsible action is to pause payments until those concerns are investigated? Uh, I don’t think it’s that simple. As I said, these programs provide a a really important service and child care is a critical one that the issue is trying to make sure the legitimate payments are made and that you’re stopping fraud. So, I I don’t think in all cases that that pausing those payments is the right action. » Okay. I just in general, I’ll say when the fraud when the fraud percentage beats 11% in Minnesota and we got it down under 1% in Wisconsin, um, I think it’s it’s a cause for concern. I’ll give you another question because a little bit of this hearing wandered a little bit uh to what happened uh in your streets out there. When um any agency comes to Wisconsin, any federal agency, I’ve talked to several of our sheriffs, uh could be ICE, could be Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, could be FBI, could be Secret Service. Our sheriffs always try to coordinate with the federal agencies, ask them what they need. you need to set up a perimeter. Can we help you by transporting people to the local jail? Do you just want some squad cars parked around uh to to make to presumably keep troublemakers at bay at bay? Uh that was not done in Minnesota like it’s routinely done in certainly all the » I don’t think that’s correct characterization. And I think Tom Holman indicated that those things do happen » um » and have been happening » uh during the time in which you had the serious riots or whatever you want to call them in Minnesota. Um I I believe that you did not reach out for your state law enforcement to help out uh federal law enforcement in part because you’re a sanctuary state and that is incorrect. Tom H. Homeman indicated we are not. » I don’t know what to tell you, Congressman. We We did We We want to cooperate. That’s not what you saw on the streets. » Right. Right. We We did not see cooperation. » You saw ICE agents shooting people in the head. You saw little children being drugged out. » You saw ICE agents indiscriminately throwing smoke grenades. And I think what the world saw was peaceful resistance and a defense of their neighbors. » So I this is not about immigration reform. this was about an untrained force that came in not with the intention of immigration. » Um I I I would say that you did not have the uh the interaction between local law enforcement and federal agencies that is routinely seen around the country. Thank you. » Gentleman yields back. Chair recogniz » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 13 months 13 months into the Trump administration and this committee has failed to hold one hearing or one open investigation to hold this president accountable. It makes you wonder, are we the oversight committee or the overlook committee? Because there is no shortage of matters that demand our attention. I can share a few that come to mind. This is a president who has turned the White House into an ATM. And in Trump’s Washington, the fastest path to a pardon or a position is to donate to Trump’s ballroom or inauguration. Last year, the Trump family added billions to its net worth through pay-for-pplace schemes and corrupt deals. Last month, the president surged ICE into Minneapolis in an abusive operation that led to American deaths and repeated violations of constitutional rights under the First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments. Also last month, the administration struck shady oil deals after the administration invaded Venezuela. Two weeks ago, the president blocked a Michigan bridge from opening after he reportedly lobbyed was reportedly lobbyed by a wealthy businessman who owns a competing bridge. Last week, the president launched a war on Iran, without the consent of Congress, without an imminent threat to our safety, and without any plan presented to the American people. And right now, hour by hour, this administration is engaging in an active and egregious cover up of the Epstein files. Yet today, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are once again showing they are more interested in partisan politics than good governance. If you are serious about fraud, you investigate it. You prosecute it. You strengthen safeguards to prevent it. What you don’t do is weaponize it. You don’t denigrate entire communities with racist smears. You don’t unleash abusive enforcement actions that undermine trust and due process. You don’t illegally cut off all Medicaid funding which will lead to innocent and sick Americans dying dying. And you don’t fire inspector generals and push out career prosecutors actively working to defeat that fraud. So, AG Ellison, um the the US Attorney’s Office in Minnesota has at least six prosecutors resigned due to the chaos ISIS caused. Can you briefly describe how these resignations have infect affected our ability to prosecute fraud? » Thank you, Congresswoman. And in fact, it’s a great deal more than six than six prosecutors. It’s many more than that. In fact, uh, one of the prosecutors who resigned in protest was one of the ones who helped to lead the the the prosecution of the feeding our future defendants. Uh, that’s to they 57 have been convicted. So, the loss of those people is dramatically harming our effort to prosecute fraud because in Minnesota we have 87 county attorneys. The AG does Medicaid fraud and the federal government prosecutes fraud that is germanine in its jurisdiction. It operates as a web together. So it’s not like the the feds are doing it and nobody else is. They’re doing the ones they supposed to do. We’re doing the ones we supposed to do and the counties are doing the ones they supposed to do. If you take the feds out that leaves an enormous gap and it and it means and criminals are shrewd. I mean, the the reality is that fraudsters are pretty smart and some of them are clever and know that if there’s nobody going if there’s no federal uh the prosecutor’s numbers are depleted, you’re going to see worse behavior. And I do fear that, which is one of the reasons why we need to pass strength, stronger legislation in Minnesota to help my office prosecute Medicaid fraud. » Thank you. And there’s deeper hypocrisy here. Donald Trump was found guilty by a jury of his peers on 34 felony counts of fraud. He has pardoned a businessman convicted of defrauding a Native American tribe to the tune of $60 million. He has pardoned a Florida CEO convicted of running $1.3 billion Medicare and Medicaid fraud scheme. He has pardoned a nursing home executive who pleaded guilty to a $ 38 million tax scheme. I could go on and on. In fact, over half of the president’s pardons have been for wire fraud, securities fraud, tax fraud, bank fraud, and healthc care fraud. And several of these pardons have come after massive political contributions to the president. In many cases, these pardons meant victims will never see a dime of restitution. House Judiciary Committee Democrats estimate the pardons for fraud related crimes could deprive victims of more than $1 billion owed to them and American taxpayers. So, this president is pardoning his wealthy donors and taking money out of the pockets of hardworking Americans. He is handing out get out of jail free cards to fraudsters while shamelessly using fraud as a pretext to go after perceived political enemies. What I believe is simple. Whether you are a president, a billionaire, or a regular American who has committed fraud, you should be held accountable. And with that, I yield back. » Gentle lady yields back. Chair recognizer Mr. Palmer from Alabama. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman, uh, for holding this hearing. I appreciate the witnesses being here. I I do want to respond to something that was said earlier by one of my, uh, colleagues across the aisle about fraud in Alabama and and the diff and he actually raised the question, why isn’t the governor of Alabama here? It’s very simple. Alabama actually did something about the fraud and SNAP benefits. Uh, we acted on that immediately. I I would argue that if the state of Minnesota had done done that, this hearing wouldn’t be necessary. So, um I’m going to ask you, Governor Waltz, is it true that your Department of Education was sued by Feeding Our Future for racial discrimination and approving food sites? » I don’t know exactly what they were sued for, but I know there was a suit. Uh, didn’t the Department of Education have serious concerns about fraud though in feeding our future in their sites as far back as 2020? » That’s correct, Congressman. They brought it to the attention of the USDA. » And didn’t your Department of Education determine there was fraud occurring because of incredibly large implausible reimbursement request? Well, I think at the time during the COVID pandemic, there was how these meals were being delivered and what safeguards because, as you know, the USDA changed the rules on these to make it easier for food to get out. » Yeah. But one of the one of the fraudster fraudster sites, Safari Restaurant, claimed that they served the same number of meals in one month as the entire St. Paul school district. uh in their transcribed interview, your commissioner of education said that this would be impossible. Uh Governor Waltz, you’re an educator. Is it plausible for a single restaurant whose owner has already been convicted and is in jail for fraud was actually serving that number of meals? » I think that’s why he went to prison if I’m not mistaken. » But the question would be why didn’t the state of Minnesota that was wasn’t that a federal conviction? » It was turned over by the state. It was a state that found it. It was the folks at the Department of Education turned it over with our federal partners. They prosecuted them. » Well, when we had the hearing with the state legislators, I mean, without exception, they all testified that um that they were bringing this to the attention of the state and the state wasn’t doing anything about it. » That those legislators run the committee, oversight committee. They never held a single hearing until just very recently. And the chairwoman of that committee is running for governor. So, I can’t speak to why, but I can tell you that we certainly » politicize this something that was reported years ago. I mean, you you could argue that she anticipated that you would resign or retire or however you want to characterize it, but I doubt that was the case. I think I want to be as respectful as I can be. And and you know, we’ve served together. I’m not one of these guys that’s trying to score political points. I try to solve problems, but I I don’t think we can we can have a transference here of intention for um one legislator that that you say is running for governor when when these issues were raised years ago » and prosecuted years ago. » Well, not all of them uh because the fraud continued and it it’s run into the billions of dollars now. I mean, the two guys, the two people that were convicted in federal court, that was $250 million, but we now know that that this has gone into the billions. And and the question, and I again, » Congressman, can you tell me where where the evidence is on the 9 billion because we’re looking for it. We’re doing what we can. I mean, all the local press and all the folks in Minnesota are saying that’s not the case. We certainly, you know, if every dollar you put out there, if you say it could be fraud, but there’s there’s there’s no evidence to that. And the problem with that is, and this story came out last week, people in the US attorney’s office said when you’re putting out these numbers that aren’t true, it undermines our ability to tackle the actual fraud. » I’m not I didn’t say 9 billion. I said that I think it’s run into the billions. And that’s not just in Minnesota. I’m again um we’ve had during COVID it the fraud was massive throughout the country particularly in the payroll protection plan and the enhanced unemployment the uh I think it begs the question Mr. Chairman why we haven’t been more aggressive in going after this all over the country. Uh the fraud that was mentioned by my colleague was was SNAP benefits and that’s in California, his own state, it’s $180 million, but to California’s credit, they’re doing something about it. Uh so that’s the issue here. » I I’m not interested in scoring political points. I’m trying to stop the fraud. I appreciate that » to get to a place where the public at the state and federal uh in terms of state and federal spending has confidence uh that we’re properly managing the money and and wherever fraud occurs that we’re aggressively pursuing it. I think that’s the question that that’s been raised about how your administration handled this. That Mr. Chairman, I yield back. If » I just say that’s fair enough, Congressman, I think that spirit is what we’re trying to get at. I do think it’s nationwide. I think we should share information. Um, I think we’re being as aggressive as possible, but fair enough. » Mr. Chairman, I’d like to seek recognition for a unanimous consent request. ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a June 17, 2025 memorandum from the House Judiciary Committee Democrats titled House Judiciary Committee Democrats memorandum regarding President Trump’s pardons cheat victims out of an astounding $1.3 billion in restitution and fines allowing fraudsters, tax evaders, drug traffickers, and keep to keep three to keep ill gotten gains which estimates the pro I’m sorry which estimates that Trump’s reckless pardons robbed victims and left per let perpetrators walk away without paying $1.3 million in restitution. » Without objection to order, chair recognizes Miss Stainsbury from New Mexico. » Good morning, good afternoon as it is. Uh Mr. Chairman, thank you for having this hearing. I know it’s been a long morning for everyone here as witnesses today and it’s been a long several months for the people of Minnesota. We thank you for your service. Now, let me just start by saying at the beginning of my comments here what I said at the beginning of the last hearing that we had on this exact same subject, which is that we must unequivocally root out waste, fraud, and abuse and prosecute any crimes wherever they happen. Whether those crimes are happening in social service programs at the state level or whether we have an outofcontrol president and administration that is committing crimes, waste, fraud, and abuse inside the White House and within our federal agencies, including deploying thousands of armed agents into our communities, using pdiums that are costing millions of taxpayer dollars every day to terrorize our communities, to violate their civil rights, to violate due process, rights and that have resulted in the murder of two US citizens. And so my question is, why are we not conducting oversight over that? Two US citizens that have been murdered by the federal government. Renee Good, a Minneapolis mom, murdered. Alex Prey, a Minneapolis VA nurse, murdered. Naru Naru Amin Shalam, a partially blind refugee in Buffalo, New York, dead after being left in a parking lot by DHS without even a pair of shoes on. the kidnapping of children like Leon Liam Ramos and an administration that has launched an unauthorized war in the Middle East with six service members dead and over 160 school children and their teachers dead and buried yesterday. Never in my life have I seen a greater disregard for the Constitution, for the rule of law, for the carelessness for human life and basic human dignity and senseless cruelty that I have seen in this administration, whether that is at home or abroad. And they can’t answer the most basic questions about why. And meanwhile, people who should be investigating these crimes are partying and drinking on taxpayer dollars. We’ve got the US DOJ AG refusing to release the Epstein files or even acknowledge their basic human dignity. And yesterday, the Secretary of DHS testifying and lying under oath in the United States Senate refusing to acknowledge Alex Prey and Renee Nicole Good’s death, its murder, and the harm that she personally has caused by calling it domestic uh terrorism. That is what we should be investigating. and the billions of taxpayer dollars that are being used to support this cruelty and outofcontrol administration. Now, I know it’s been a long day and Mr. Ellison, I know you have had a long day especially. I want to say thank you for your service, Governor. You have inspired the nation by helping to organize along with the faith community, our communities in resistance, in strength. And I agree with you, Reverend, that silence is complicity. And that is why we have to speak. And so, Mr. Ellison, I just want to ask you one question. What do you think Congress should be investigating? What should we be investigating here today? » Congresswoman, I’d be very grateful if the committee really dug into the use of force policy at ICE. I think it needs greater training. I think it needs clear clearly better guidelines. I think there needs to be a policy of cooperation between state and federal investigators in the FBI. And I think uh there should be a general policy that leaders not make statements about blame or guilt uh you know immediately after the tragedy and they should try to wait and figure out what actually happened before they make those kind of statements that you identified. » Thank you. AG and I’ll just say this. I’ve heard a lot of political theater here today. I think it’s disgraceful. Our job as the oversight committee. Our job is to oversee the administration and the agencies that it executes on. And we are failing the American people, and this administration is failing the world. With that, I yield back. » Gentle lady yields back. I might add that it’s my understanding the Homeland Security Committee is investigating uh the two deaths in Minnesota. Chair now recognizes Mr. Fallon from Texas. » Mr. Chairman. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walch, do you believe the 70,000 strong Somali community as a whole has made a positive impact on your state? » I do. » So, you’d be of the opinion fair to say that the Somali community has successfully assimilated and is making Minnesota better? » Yeah, I believe they’re on that path. Yes. » I’m just curious by what metric you’d come to that conclusion. I just looked at some hard data. And do you have any idea the what percentage of the nativeorn motans all races live in poverty in your state right now? » I don’t have specifically. » I I I’ll share it with you. It’s 8%. For the Somali community, it’s 52%. How about receiving food stamps? » All right. I I’ll run it down with you. Uh it’s 7% and then uh and compared to 54% in the Somali community. And then uh don’t have or have it don’t have at least a high school diploma. For all motans, it’s 5%. Somali community, it’s 39%. One family member at least uh on Medicaid, it’s 18% for Minnesota, 73% for the Somali community. And receiving welfare of some form, it’s 21% and it’s 81% for the Somali community. And do you, Governor, do you happen to know what the percentage is of all those who have currently been charged in this staggering social services fraud scheme were nativeorn motans? What percentage? » I I do not have that. I think it was 85 out of 98 which comes out to 13% motan and 87% uh Somali motan. So I think this is an instance perhaps of where woke gets slept by data. Governor, there’s been billions stolen over seven plus years right under your nose. And really there’s only two explanations. It’s either you were in on it or you weren’t smart enough to uh to see it. It’s either criminal negligence or wild incompetence. And the only way this kind of fraud can reach this scale is if there’s people in power that are colluding and uh collaborating and willfully blinding themselves to the realities around them. And in oversight when we do investigations, it’s rare for us to have whistleblowers because it’s they face uh retribution and punishment and resentment and uh they can be ostracized and it’s difficult and it’s uncomfortable and sometimes it’s even dangerous. So when we have an uh when we’re in having investigation and we have even a couple of whistleblowers, it’s very valuable to us because they provide uh invaluable insight. Do you have any idea how many whistleblowers are working from Minnesota are working with the oversight committee? » I do not. We have our own strong protections on the OA, the independ I mean I haven’t seen that in five plus years in Congress. 30. Governor, on September 16th, 2025, did you uh announce your re-election bid? » Pardon me. » On September 16th last year, did you » I don’t know the exact date. » In September, roughly the fall last year, did you announce you’re running for governor again? » Yeah, I I believe that’s correct. » Okay. And then I think you said in a quote here, “We’ve made historic progress, but we’re not done yet.” And then just three and a half months later on January 5th, you dropped out. I got to ask you why. I mean, were you tired of making historic progress? No, Congressman. I think I’ I’ve done the job for two terms and I said talking with my family and I said I want to focus on doing the job, not » have anything to do with this epic historic awful fraud. » It has everything to do with trying to do the job right for Minnesota. » The facts are your leadership and really your lack of leadership has been responsible for one of the largest ripoffs of the American taxpayer in our history. and you traded I I believe uh political expediency the currency of political expediency uh for your integrity and you know Mr. Chairman, I I don’t know if you know this, but it’s widely it’s been widely reported that in 2008 when Barack Obama was choosing his vice presidential candidate, he had three criteria. He wanted to make sure he picked somebody that wasn’t as smart as him and had less talent and charisma and couldn’t possibly outshine him. So, he picked Joe Biden. And then Joe Biden in 2020 used the exact same criteria. He wanted to make sure he picked someone who wasn’t as smart as him, had less talent and charisma and wouldn’t outshine him. And he picked Kamala. And then in 2024, Governor, I think it’s very evident why Camala Harris picked you. The talent pool chairman, Mr. Chairman, » the talent pool in Shallow, brother, we have hit the shore and I yield back. » Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. Suberman. » Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, so I have some concerns about not just the tactics of ICE in Minnesota and everywhere. I have concerns about the fact that Renee Good and Alex Prey were killed and there has been no real investigation by uh federal law enforcement and uh federal authorities and uh so I would ask uh Attorney General Ellison, do you know of if the FBI is actually investigating what happened? Thank you for the question, Congressman. To the information we have is that there was an affirmative statement by Deputy AG, Deputy AG Todd Blanch that they were not investigating. They’re in a good matter. On the Alex Prey, we received information that that was similar and that there might be an investigation, but that the state would be excluded. So, in the first one, they’re not doing an investigation and we can’t have the information. In the second one, they might be doing an investigation and the state cannot be part of it. » And I know this is asking for your opinion, but why do you think they would want to exclude the state and Alex Proy investigation? » Well, I you know, I don’t want to speculate as to what somebody’s motives might be, but I can just tell you this. It is a sharp departure from the norm. Normally we investigate these things jointly and when somebody doesn’t want another investigator there sometimes you you might wonder if there’s something that they don’t want to come out » and it’s my understanding that the federal government is better positioned to do such an investigation and uh to be able to prosecute such crimes because there might be federal immunity. uh my understanding federal agents are typically immune from state prosecution if their actions were directly tied to official duties. What is your understanding of that? » So my uh understanding starts with the sup supremacy clause in the US constitution and then there’s a line of cases. The first one is something called inray nagel and then there’s a number of cases after that. What it says is that if a uh federal agent co uh commits a arguably commits a crime and is indicted or charged that the uh that agent the federal agent would have a affirmative defense of saying that I was doing my job and I was doing it in a necessary and proper way. What I was doing was necessary and proper. If they can meet both of those criteria, a court might grant their motion to dismiss. If they cannot, the matter is going to face a jury. And matter of fact, there was a case involving, you may remember the case involving Randy Weaver in Idaho. Uh, that case actually was cleared by the Ninth Circuit to go to trial. Uh, but the local authorities decided not to pursue it. » And to prosecute Renee Good and Alex Prey, you would need evidence, right? Has the FBI or anyone uh given you or been able to cooperate with you on any evidence in this case? » The the the No, at this point they have precluded the state from access to the evidence, but there’s a lot of other evidence out there. Uh and we’re also pursuing all options to get access to the evidence. » Do you think with what you have now, you could you could prosecute Renee Good and Alex Prey at the state level? I think theoretically it would be it’s possible, but I I would think it would be imprudent until you see the federal file because, you know, when you’re a prosecutor, you should know the whole file. You should have you should have evaluated all the evidence before you make a charging decision or bring a matter to the uh grand jury. » Because my concern here is that not only are these terrible things happening to US citizens, but there’s no accountability, right? There’s no mechanism there. there’s a cover up for for the people who are at ICE and other law enforcement who do the wrong thing and it’s making everyone at those agencies look bad. It’s making our country look bad in the international stage. And so, you know, we have legislation at the federal level. Uh I’m a co-sponsor of the Stop Excessive Force and Immigration Act. Uh we’re trying to do things tangibly to make things better. We need some support on the other side of the aisle, but certainly we’re going to push forward anyway. I guess I would end by saying, what would you ask Congress to do to to help get the accountability that we’re looking for? And I’ll ask any either one. » I I think that for uh for anyone, Republican or Democrat, hoping to get public trust restored to immigration agents, there must be clear protocols regarding recruitment, training, and protocols on use of force. There must be an investigation. States must be involved and there’s more to be discussed. » Governor Waltz, you have five seconds. » I would agree with the attorney general that it’s about restoring faith that people don’t trust what they’re doing and we need them to be able to do their job. » Thank you. I yield back. » Gentleman yields back. I’ll now recognize Mr. Bellis from Missouri and then Mr. Timmons from South Carolina. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Waltz. Um we already know that the Minnesota Medical Assistance gives taxpayer dollars to people that are not here legally, illegal aliens. And we know that in large part um your sanctuary city policies or sanctuary state policies have exacerbated the fraud that we are seeing in Minnesota. Um, we we know that just from conservative estimates alone that when the B during the B administration, we had an estimated 15 million people come here illegally. Within your state alone, the estimates from the migration institute in Pew Research is that it’s at least 130,000 people that are here illegally. Um, and we know that $250 million was stolen for the Feeding Our Futures program. Are you familiar with the fact that those working for the the program and individuals later convicted of fraudulent crimes met with Mr. Ellison in the what what has been talked about the the recorded um conversation? » I believe the attorney general just testified to that. Yes. Um it was a 54-minute conversation and in that um the conversation was recorded and as an audio file secured by there was a for a request to get that information. Um c he can clearly be heard pledging his support to individuals who would soon become um his family’s campaign donors and later feeding our future criminal defendants. The ask occurs around minute 4330. Um, specifically the request for him is in the AG statutory role as the attorney for state agencies to intervene on behalf of these frauds. And at 4426, U. Mr. Ellison assures the fraudsters quote unquote, “Of course, I’m here to help.” And at four 45 minute mark he says quote unquote let’s go fight these people. These people meaning the agencies that were looking into the fraud. Have you listened to this audio? » Uh today was the first time I’ve heard it. I’m familiar with it and I I don’t know if I can validate that characterization. » If if this is true, do you have concerns? I’m not going to speculate on a I like I said, I can’t characterize what it was. » Certainly, you’ve heard the allegations that that um that Mr. Ellison was working with individuals and avoid like to try to that people were trying to reach out to him to try to avoid any kind of prosecution. » I don’t know if I would characterize it like that. I don’t I I couldn’t do that. » How would you characterize it? » I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I just heard the clip you had. How much fraudulent money has been recovered? » Oh, I don’t have the number in front of me, but uh » I’ve heard the highest number is 80 million. I mean, » that that could be. I can’t verify that. » So, it’s reported that it’s um at most it’s $80 million. And as we know the amount um that has been attributed to fraud in Minnesota alone is estimated, I think on the low end, the conservative side is 9 billion. I think the Trump administration says 19 billion. Congressman, I don’t I don’t see anything to show that, but what I’ve acknowledged is $1 is too much. I think that the local people and the folks who are taking count of this show it just at about 271 million. » Do you think the effort to return the money has been successful? » I can’t I can’t speak to that. I don’t I don’t have any part in that. I I think that um returning 80 million out of a let’s say assume it’s just 9 billion which would be point it would be zero or 08% less than 1% of the money has been has been got » congressman no one’s saying the 9 billion other than a potential for that and that would mean every dollar that’s out there and I I think that was characterized last week by the US attorney’s office is saying that that caused problems because there’s no evidence to back that up But I want to be clear that doesn’t make it any better. I just want to be clear. I hear you on the 300 million. » Would you agree there’s more work to do? If you’re at 1% or less than 1% there’s more work to do. » I think if it’s 99% there’s more work to do. » Um last week you stated to the press that you have fired people who weren’t doing their jobs. Is that correct? » What I stated was is that people have been put into new positions. That we removed people from positions. » You did not fire anyone. » People stepped away. shuffled the decks on the Titanic. » I think they left they left the or they left state government. » Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. » Gentlemen yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. Timmons and then Maguire. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And » thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Governor Wals, under your leadership, Minnesota has become the poster boy of fraud in America. Between the feeding our future scheme uh and massive widespread fraud in autism and child care programs, your tenure will be defined by immense negligence costing taxpayers at least hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars. Uh, in 2019, in the first months of your administration, your legislative auditor found serious weaknesses in the childare assistance program, including inadequate attendance verification, repeat bad actors cycling through the system, weak enforcement, and employees who feared retaliation for raising concerns. Those warnings were specific, they were actionable, and they were documented. And you were already in office. The buck stops with you, Governor. It’s unclear when the buck actually stopped. Uh, in your written testimony, you list listed multiple actions you have taken to curb fraud. Yet, clearly, they were insufficient. As Minnesota ended up with 14 Medicaid programs deemed high risk, representing over 18 billion in spending. The buck didn’t stop when whistleblowers were silenced years ago. It only stopped when you realized the fraudsters were drawing attention from people that you couldn’t intimidate into silence. Fraud of this magnitude magnitude does not happen overnight. It builds slowly and it’s the result of institutional failures and poor leadership. So, Governor, my question is simple. If the buck stopped with you, as you said, who failed between 2019 and 2022, and why were they not held accountable? » Who failed in what, Congressman? » This fraud has been growing until recently, and you have been governor for many years. » No. Well, thank you for the question, Congressman. And I would I would disagree with your characterization obviously and uh the legislative auditor, I don’t know what the time period they investigated. Those are usually come months after they did it. We took office in January of 2019 and immediately started acting on what those OA the office of legislative auditor independent branch started asking us to do where we started changing the programs. » That’s not what the record reflects. The record reflects that there were all of these whistleblowers and they were being intimidated because alleged racism was the motivation behind the the degree of enforcements. » Congressman, I’ve never got I’ve never got a chance to speak to these folks. What I will say is is that in my time in Congress proved that. I I strongest whistleblower protections we can possibly have. We have plenty of opportunities. » We’re not talking to every other state. We’re talking to Minnesota because of the rampant fraud. So look, three is there fraud in any other states? Three members of the Minnesota State House of Representatives, who all served on the fraud prevention and state oversight uh policy committee, gave transcribed interviews that confirmed that your administration was aware of the fraud happening in the state, yet chose not to act due to fear of political repercussions and intentionally silenced whis silenced whistleblowers who have tried to come forward. Uh » well, that’s incorrect. » Mr. Chairman, I’m going to answer this in the record. Road roadmap to program integrity and fraud prevention. It’s a report, Mr. Mr. Chairman, » thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, this report, um, relays that several current and former Department of Human Services employees have described messaging from DHS leadership that emphasize compassion over compliance. So the former leaders have said that DHS should be guided by 70% compassion and 30% compliance. And then in uh 2023 DHS uh public presentation, leadership encouraged employees to embrace a 6040 mindset. Again, that’s 60% compassion and 40% compliance. I want to have as much compassion for people that need social safety nets. Like I want to have 100% compassion, but we also have to have 100% compliance or work as hard as we can to get there. And as you sit here today and after acknowledging how widespread and pervasive fraud is in Minnesota, how should your state employees prioritize program compliance, what what is your message to people now uh relative to this compassion compliance uh ratio? » Well, I I think I agree with you on this, Congressman. I don’t think it’s an either or choice. We need to make sure we’re not going to we’re not going to stop these programs. We’re not going to stop being the top state for children in the country, but we need to make sure if we’re going to continue those programs that we need to have fraud prevention and program integrity in. So, I I agree with you. It’s it’s not an either or and it’s not a percentage. » In order to give the benefits to the people that need the most, we have to be good stewards of tax dollars. And for every dollar that is stolen through waste, fraud, and abuse, that is a dollar that cannot go to people that need it most. So, we need to prioritize uh compliance, make sure that we have the least amount of fraud possible. And um with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you. » I agree, Congressman. » Gentleman yields back. Uh next is Mr. Magcguire from Virginia, then Miss Luna. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon to our witnesses, Governor Waltz and Attorney General Ellison. What year were you made aware of rampant fraud in your state? » Well, Congressman, I I think » the committee has spoken to nearly 30 whistleblowers, most of which are current employees in your administration. Based on these transcribed interviews, you were both made aware of the rampant fraud in your state around 2019 2020. » Did they make » Waltz? Do you know who Janelle Sky Hansen is? » I do not. I was going to ask you. » Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter into the record article from Care 11 titled Care 11 investigates evicted homeless paying the price for Minnesota’s fraud crisis. » Without objection, so ordered. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walls, Janelle Hansen, who goes by the name Sky has autism. In June 2025, Sky, who was living in an apartment paid for by Integrated Community Supports, was evicted by police because her caregivers, American Home Healthcare LLC, who were subletting her apartment stopped paying their rent there. This provider claimed to provide this woman with 12 hours of daily in individual services and build ICS on an average of nearly $12,000 a month when she only interacted with them two hours per day. Because of this fraud, the woman has been homeless. While Sky is homeless, the owner of American Home Healthc Care LLC lives in a high-end Maple Grove home which has an indoor basketball court. State Medicaid bill and data shows since 2022, American Home Healthcare has been paid more than $2.2 million in public funds. That is $2.2 million that was taken fraudulently from the taxpayers to pay for a man to live in a lavish home while people like Sky are left to live on the street. Governor Waltz, this is despicable. You have a duty to serve the motans you failed and you failed to protect these individuals like Sky who needed it the most. I’ve had constituents tell me that after seeing all the fraud that has come to light in your state that they aren’t sure if they’re paying taxes or if they are paying criminals. Governor Waltz, Attorney General Ellison, yes or no. Does your administration take whistleblower reports seriously? Yes or no? » Yes. Yes. » Governor Waltz and Attorney General Ellison, yes or no? Do you believe that when faced with a whistleblower, the correct course of action to is to retaliate against them and suppress their concerns? » No, of course not. It’s illegal to do. » Governor Waltz, yes or no. Are you aware of any instance of employees in Minnesota’s Department of Human Services being threatened and intimidated with military surveillance to ensure they stay quiet about fraud? » I am not. » This is a picture. This is a picture of an email from Emanuel Nuala at the DHS manager who has since been promoted to your lead to the leadership role. This email shows clear proof that the threatened employees with military surveillance including quote I did intelligence research with Army and give them IP addresses and email addresses to track specific locations. Governor Waltz, yes or no? Are you aware of this email? » I am not. » Governor Waltz, Mr. Nala stated in the email that he was asked by upper leadership to hold off as they are doing their own thing on it. What did that mean? What do they mean by that? » I couldn’t say. I’m unfamiliar with it. » Was upper leadership doing their own military surveillance on whistleblowers to intimidate employees and to stay in quiet about u rampant fraud? » I do not believe they would. » Moving on. Governor Walls, yes or no. Do you agree that it would be intimidation to confront a whistleblower with photographs of their car, their house, and monitor their phone and computer and ask which schools their children go to? » Yes. » Governor Walsh, yes or no? Did the DHS investigators to uh direct you to participate in these intimidation tax against whistleblowers? » Could you restate the question? » Did did were you directed to intimidate these whistleblowers? » Of course not. No. Governor Waltz, who is Shireen Gandhi? » She is the current commissioner of the department. » In her transcribed interview, Miss Gandhi confirmed that DHS used outside entities to investigate DHS staff. Governor Wals, I think it’s clear to the American people that your administration didn’t take whistleblowers seriously and even further cultivated an environment of fear to intimidate employees from going public with the truth about the rampant fraud in your state. And under your failed leadership, Governor Walls and Attorney General Ellison, your incompetence and inaction to stop pervasive fraud when you were first alerted was not only defrauded taxpayers of $9 million, but you have also failed to protect those who truly needed these services such as Sky. Because of your failed leadership, that woman was evicted from her apartment and homeless on a street for eight months. Leadership matters. Governor, you abandoned your troops before deployment. you right before the deployed, you told your law enforcement not to cooperate with federal agents, which led to a lot of the problems in your state that you don’t see happening around the country and you you um abandoned Minnesota by allowing this fraud to continue. And so I understand you I’m so glad that you have decided not to for re-election as governor. With that, I yield back. » Congressman, did you do 24 years in the military? » Because I did. » Was that not long enough for you? I I’m sorry you’re now interfering with my time, but as a veteran, he’s a veteran, too. I don’t think that you need to compare service. No one’s discrediting your service, but I think they’re discrediting your ability to lead your state. » My credit was being questioned and I did that. I recognizes Miss Luna from Florida. » Thank you, Governor. I would ask my line of questioning is not for you. Please do not interfere with the witness’s time. It’s for your education. » He didn’t ask a question, so it is Miss Luna’s time. » Thank you. » Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to be very clear about why we are here today and why both of you should be concerned. I have already sent criminal referrals to Attorney General Pam Bondi recommending that both Governor Waltz and Attorney General Ellison be investigated and prosecuted under 18 US Code 371 and 18 US Code 2. The US Attorney Office estimates up to 9 billion in taxpayer money has been stolen on your watch, Governor Waltz. Not a rounding error, not a typo. $9 billion and both of you knew. Mr. Ellison, there’s a widely reported recording of a meeting between you and Feeding um Feeding Our Future on December 11th, 2021. At that meeting, those individuals that you were speaking to told you that the state investigators looking into fraud were acting in a quote racist manner. And your response was, and I’m quoting directly from the recording, let’s just go fight these people. I want to ask you, what do you mean by fight these people? Congresswoman. Um, f first of all, this matter I’ve responded in writing to this committee. I’ve written an op-ed about this matter. I have uh gone through several committees, one in the state, one in the fed, one in the Senate, now here today. And it’s very clear that these people were clearly liars. They were lying to me. They lied to judges. They lied to the state agencies. They were fraudsters. everyone agrees that they are fraudsters. And » um if I could just because I’m a limit on time though, I want to see and I understand what you were stating. You’re saying that you were essentially lied to, but in responding to them and the reason I’m questioning on this is because I had the privilege of questioning some of your state legislators that were Republicans and they did feel that both you and the governor were covering up what was happening with the fraud. So I want to specifically just want who are you referencing when you said fight these people? If you could just keep it short, » Congressman, » was that your own state? » Congresswoman, these people represented themselves to be business people who were having difficulty with the bureaucracy. » Okay. » They contacted me and they wanted to know what, you know, can you can you possibly help us? What I did is investigate their claims and then » worked with the federal authorities to see 57 of them convicted of crimes and about I think more than 80 now indicted. So the these these people presented themselves as someone needing help and honest business people. They were not what they claim to be and we helped them get convicted as well. clarifying but just to be clear it would be the bureaucracy would you say within your own state » is that you were you were saying fight these people as in the bure bureaucracy within your own state correct » congresswoman I was in I was in Congress for 12 years » thank you for » and I did and I did constituent services all the time » I Okay, so I’m not going to get anywhere on this question. That brings me to my next thing. Do you believe that it is racist to investigate someone of fraud because they are of Somalian descent? » Yes or no? Ma’am, I believe that anybody who commits fraud of any background should be investigated and held accountable. » Okay. Well, I would actually agree with you on that one. So, thank you for clarifying. Um, but to be clear, those individuals that you told the Department of Human and uh human services were basically um it was racist than if you were looking into it for fraud. Um, you took that meeting, you made that promise, and then it turns out that the billions of dollars in fraud continued. And I hate to bring this up because I am a parent, but your own son also received donations from those same individuals. Um, Imam Omar, the man that you invited um invited you and is listed a partial owner of an entity that was used to launder over 40 million in feeding our future funds. I would say that you did mislead the public. Whether or not um you at the time realized what they were up to, the fact is is that you were then presented with the evidence. And it does feel and according to your own state legislators that you did not take that seriously enough. In my opinion, if you have that disagree, ma’am, » I I I I’m telling you what my opinion is. Um I don’t believe that that was a question, but I do believe based on the recording, based on the fact that you were personally tied to it and based on the fact that your family then had ties to it as well. Seems a little sus. Um, aside from that though, you’re telling the American people essentially that maybe you didn’t know about it when dozens of your own employees were afraid to as being labeled as racist or islamophobic if they stayed silent. And so I just want to be clear about something. You’ve stated and you agree that anyone should be investigated based on, you know, regardless of their background. But the fact is is that your own employees came forward and were actually afraid of actually looking into that fraud because they did not want to be labeled as is Islamophobic or um as as maybe xenophobic. So you dismiss this, as President Trump said, as politicizing the issue when $9 billion is not a political talking point. It’s an embarrassment. The American people see what’s going on and this is fraud. Um, I would say and I would also advise the attorney general to look into our criminal referrals. I do not believe that you guys um could say that you didn’t know what was happening because frankly um even if let’s say giving you the benefit of the doubt, you might not have known, you guys still chose to turn a blind eye to it. » Thank you, chairman. I yield my time. » Gentle lady yields back. And before I represent before I recognize Mr. Langworthy our uh last questioner I want to say Congressman Jack is on the rules committee and everyone knows that they put in long hours. He’s actually managing the floor. If he doesn’t make it back in time after Mr. Langworthy I I want to uh put into the record represent Jack uh is leading debate on the floor but will submit his questions for the record. So with that recognize Mr. Langworthy from New York. » Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. Um, governor, you have uh served as governor of the state of Minnesota for nearly 7 years. Why did it take you until 2023 to launch an investigation under an inspector general into this massive fraud that’s been uncovered? » I don’t I don’t believe that timeline’s correct, Congressman. As I said, we were making changes and this has been being worked and these cases have been brought forward years before. But but your your administration did hesitate for years to fully investigate this fraud. Was it because you were concerned about the you know you’re the de facto leader of the Democratic Party of Minnesota as a governor? » Were you concerned about the political consequences within the Minnesota Democratic Party’s voter coalition? Is that did that lead to you making that mistake? cuz I trying to listen to the answers today and come up with a conclusion as to why you would turn a blind eye to this for so long when so many people from your partners in government across the aisle, but also people at the street level uh saw this fraud going on in in plain sight. » Well, we did not and I know that the rest of the country saw this recently. And what I would ask you, Congressman, is is what benefit would there be to that? Just assume there’s no ethics involved, which I have a long history here of of doing that. There’s certainly no benefit in taking money from programs that I’ve advocated for that make Minnesota the best state to live. And so we worked it from the beginning. And and look, these things these folks continue to move. They’re a moving target. We went back to the legislature asking for more tools. We went back last year and asked for more tools. And now what’s great is Republicans are actually supporting those things that we put forward. So as soon as » well governor governor Republicans came to this committee last month and testified the fact that they’ve been trying to get people’s attention in power in Minnesota for a long time. Uh » I would disagree with their characterization. » Well it so so you state that unequivocally there was no political consideration based on constituents in the Democratic party turned a blind eye. Now, that’s interesting that Governor, because your first reactions in December 2025 were to call taxpayer conspiracy theorists and dismissed concerns about the $9 billion in fraud as white supremacy. And, you know, on December 23rd, you stated, “This is what happens when they scapegoat and this is what happens when you no longer hide the idea of white supremacy.” You immediately went there and » I believe I was speaking about the ICE invasion in Metro Surge. I I’m unfamiliar with where you’re quoting from. » This this is this is when when this fraud was uncovered. Knowing now that those people were correct, would you apologize to those constituents for for classifying them? » I’m unfamiliar what you’re asking for. I’ve heard today attacks on the Somali community that I would view as racist trope thrown at the Somali community. » Okay. Governor, I I understand you need to deny and deflect and and you know, your stories are are pretty legendary at this point, but while you were looking the other way at fraud that took place on your watch, you and your ticket mates uh in in the Democratic party in Minnesota get somewhere between 80 and 90% of the vote in Somali heavy precincts. Uh in in your election, re-election, the gentleman sitting next to you won his last election by a mere 21,000 votes. Uh it seems to me in in conventional wisdom here would be that you were willfully ignorant to these crimes in return for a community support. Um » that’s totally false, Congressman. That accusation is totally false. I I won by I don’t know 10 points, hundreds of thousands of votes. » He won by 21,000. » But but that accusation throwing that around, we came here to help and work with you to try and find solutions for » we’re talking about $9 billion in fraud. Your entire state budget’s only 65 billion. I mean, this is a massive » You have the spreadsheet on that, Congressman, on the nine billion. » I you’ve you’ve rattled off about 10 different numbers today. You clearly don’t have a handle on the numbers either, and you need a serious accounting effort in the state of Minnesota right now. » Okay, Congressman, I’ve given you the numbers. » Do you believe that you’re in action in the first term to prevent fraud in the childhood nutrition and child care assistance programs gave the green light to other scammers uh to commit housing and Medicaid fraud in your second term? No, I don’t believe that. » And once again, your words say one thing, your actions say something different. You came into office after several multi-million dollar fraud scandals on the heels of a 2018 report alleging that over a $100 million was being defrauded from taxpayers annually and you did nothing. And in 2020, after hearing about potential fraud with feeding in our future, you did nothing. And governor, you knew and did nothing to stop autism payment fraud. its annual expenses inexplicably increased from $6 million to $192 million in just five years. And you did nothing to stop housing stabilization, Medicaid fraud, which has topped hundred billion. And you did nothing to stop daycare fraud, an issue that’s already costing taxpayers millions when you were sworn into office. Are are you familiar with article 8 of the Minnesota Constitution? » I am not, Congressman, but I I will give you this. doing nothing. You’re in the right job for that in this Congress. I I I disagree with that entire characterization. No, I’m unfamiliar. » It seems like you’ve created a state of Minnesota that you’re free to come. » It ranks at the top of almost every category and make fraud. » It ranks at the top of nearly every category in quality of life. » A real big bold one after what we’ve uncovered here today. Article Minnesota officers, including the governor, may be impeached for male fees or nonfeasants in the performance of their official duties. Well, billions of dollars of taxpayer money were allowed to be lost to fraud. Whistleblowers were ignored. It’s extremely well documented. Uh and th those people were punished and you had a direct political benefit to this fraud. That’s an impeachable offense. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Gentleman yields back and I think you heard the bell. I know votes are uh being called, so the ranking member and I have deferred any any closing statements until we we come back. I want to thank our witnesses for being here. Uh we appreciate your uh testimony. Uh hopefully you all will will read the uh committee report and protect the whistleblowers and hopefully we can hold some people accountable who have committed fraud. Pursuant to the previous order, the committee will recess for floor votes. We plan to reconvene right after the vote series. The committee stands in recess. Thank you all. » You want us back? » Yeah. The witnesses can be excused. Thank you all. I know you have plans catch. We really appreciate you all being here. » Thank you, chairman.